Transcript [00:00] Welcome back to Discover Your Roots. [00:01] [music] My name is Josiah McGee and I'm [00:03] your host for season 5. This season, my [00:05] good friend Jesse Rojo and I are [00:07] tackling one of the tough questions [00:09] dividing Christians today. Can you [00:11] actually be a Christian and support [00:13] Israel and the Jewish people? [music] Or [00:14] are those two things actually at odds? [00:17] So, let's pull up a chair, open the [00:18] Bible, and work through it together, one [00:20] question at a time. Hi everyone. Thank [00:23] you for joining us again. This is [00:25] episode two. Today, we're going to get [00:28] right to the good stuff. I think and [00:30] talk about how Christian esquetology [00:32] shapes Jewish Christian relations. [00:34] Esquetology is a big word. Jesse will [00:36] define that for us in just a moment. And [00:38] today, honestly, I'm just going to [00:40] interrogate Jesse about a number of [00:42] really interesting but sometimes sticky [00:45] subjects. What is esquetology? [00:47] What is its relationship to Jewish [00:49] Christian relations? What are the [00:51] benefits of esquetology? and what are [00:54] its limits in this area of Jewish [00:56] Christian relations or understanding how [00:58] Christians think about Israel and the [01:00] Jewish people. So, we're just going to [01:02] jump right in cuz we've got a lot to get [01:03] to today. Jesse, [01:06] >> first things first, like I said, kind of [01:08] a big word. I don't know how many people [01:10] study this on a regular basis. So, if [01:12] you wouldn't mind just defining the term [01:14] for us, what is esquetology? [01:17] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, it's [01:18] uh it's important to really define it [01:20] and understand it in basic terms. When [01:22] you're asking about esquetology, you're [01:24] essentially asking where history is [01:26] going and how God will bring his [01:29] purposes in fulfillment. Right? More [01:31] specifically, esquetology is a study of [01:34] last things. essentially how God's [01:37] ultimate purposes for humanity and [01:39] creation and in and and in Christian [01:41] theology that includes Christ's return, [01:44] his the resurrection of the dead, the [01:46] final judgment and the renewal of all [01:48] creation, right? I think often times [01:50] people associate it with just like [01:52] predictions and prophetic timelines or [01:54] identifying the antichrist. But [01:56] esquetology has a larger scope, right? [01:59] It's about defeating evil and sin. It's [02:01] about again the resurrection of the [02:03] dead, reconnecting with our loved ones [02:05] and and and life in God's restored [02:07] creation. That's the ultimate hope, [02:09] right? Everything else is kind of like [02:11] the details in between. And you know, [02:13] depending on where you put your [02:14] emphasis, you kind of land in one of [02:17] three major schools of esquetology. But [02:19] that is in essence how I would define [02:21] esquetology. Where's history going and [02:23] how God will bring his purposes to [02:26] fulfillment. [02:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. I think one [02:29] of the really interesting things about [02:30] esquetology as you sort of get into it a [02:33] little bit. Obviously, there's a lot [02:34] that you could study. It's been around [02:36] for a long time, you know, certainly has [02:39] been something that was considered even [02:41] in the period of the early church. I [02:42] mean, if you read some of the epistles [02:44] that Paul is writing or Peter is [02:47] writing, they're both sort of wrestling [02:49] with these issues that the early [02:50] churches are wrestling with. What what [02:52] does the end of days mean? What what do [02:54] the last days mean? When does Jesus come [02:56] back? [02:57] questions like that and understanding [03:00] the time that they lived in in relation [03:02] to those those last days or the the end [03:04] of days. I also think if you fast [03:06] forward quite a bit though to your point [03:08] Jesse there was it seems like a bit of a [03:10] resurgence in terms of how we use that [03:14] framework to think about the present not [03:16] just the future especially really I [03:18] think as a result of the reformation in [03:20] a lot of ways obviously this idea that [03:22] Martin Luther helped champion among [03:24] others that you read scripture with a [03:26] historicist framework mindset that you [03:29] you can use it to understand not just [03:30] the past and the future but also the [03:33] present and obviously that became a part [03:35] of, you know, how esquetology became so [03:38] popular. I think today now it's [03:40] especially in the evangelical world, [03:41] it's really popular. If you don't have [03:43] an esquetology or a theory about the end [03:45] times, it's kind of [03:47] >> kind of weird honestly. Like most [03:49] people, even without thinking about it, [03:50] you have a theory even if you don't [03:52] think about it all the time or talk [03:54] about it. So it is, [03:55] >> yeah, [03:56] >> yeah, I think important for us to talk [03:57] about this just because it is so much a [03:59] part of the environment that we live in [04:00] today in the, you know, 21st century. I [04:02] mean, you know, personally, you know, I [04:04] I grew up very much immersed in a lot of [04:08] teachings of revelations, [04:11] you know, the left behind series and, [04:13] you know, I grew up very much [04:14] dispensational and going to seminary, [04:18] graduating high school, I kind of got [04:21] burned out, you know, and got turned off [04:23] from esquetology for a long time. I [04:26] didn't want to engage in it because of [04:28] perhaps many of the same reasons a lot [04:30] of people would say today. You know, [04:32] it's divisive. It's, you know, it [04:34] there's a lot of very hard, you know, [04:37] difficult passages to understand or and [04:39] and frankly, there are certain circles [04:41] that, you know, see other circles as as [04:43] sects or, you know, not even real [04:46] believers or part of the body of Christ [04:48] because of these differences. So, you [04:50] know, I I really wanted to stay away [04:53] from it for a very long time until I [04:55] really started engaging in this work, [04:58] particularly Jewish Christian relations [05:00] and developing a greater awareness about [05:02] international affairs and how me as a [05:05] Christian I need to think about these [05:06] things. And really when I started [05:08] wrestling with that, I started realizing [05:11] where esquetology fits and it's within [05:13] that greater scope. Not not necessarily [05:15] of course the details matters but we we [05:18] get fixated by the details and we lose [05:20] the larger scope of esquetology was to [05:22] be what is which is to be reminded of [05:25] the paria right the return of Christ [05:27] this this the peruia rather the return [05:31] of Christ that he's coming to establish [05:33] his kingdom and and again being reminded [05:35] that all the evil that we see today is [05:38] not the ultimate definition of of where [05:41] history will be in the future. So I I I [05:44] I I yes I I share with you the the the [05:47] same you know emphasis on the importance [05:50] of this topic because you know I went [05:52] through a particular journey where I [05:53] first wanted to really stay away from it [05:55] but understood now the importance of it [05:57] and how central it is really to the [06:00] Christian faith and how we look at the [06:01] world as as as we develop a worldview. [06:04] >> I I think I'm gonna I don't like to do [06:06] this this early in an episode, but I [06:08] think I'm going to contradict myself a [06:10] little bit in what I said a moment ago. [06:12] I think everyone I I said everyone has [06:15] some some theory of esquetology and I I [06:18] do think that is essentially true. I'm [06:21] going to contradict myself slightly in [06:22] that not everyone knows exactly what [06:24] they believe. I think for a long time [06:27] >> that's true too. Yeah. [06:28] >> I certainly would have been in that camp [06:30] and even today I find myself frequently [06:33] struggling to articulate my esquetology [06:35] because I I don't find it fitting neatly [06:37] into many of the categories that are [06:39] available. I think unfortunately what is [06:42] true even of people who don't have a [06:45] clear theory of esquetology of their own [06:48] is that it's pretty easy to identify [06:50] what you don't agree with. Like there is [06:52] divisiveness kind of comes with a [06:54] territory. It's easier to say well I'm [06:55] not that than it is to explain what you [06:58] do believe about esquetology. And it is [07:00] a product I think of some of the the [07:02] ways in which it has become a really a [07:03] really divisive topic. So I'm glad we're [07:05] covering it. To your point, Jesse, it's [07:07] really important that we we do so. But I [07:09] want to also pivot for a moment and just [07:12] ask you, what does this have to do with [07:14] Jewish Christian relations? I we're [07:16] talking about a fairly specific subset [07:18] of Christian theology. What bearing does [07:21] that have to this this broader [07:24] conversation that you and I will be [07:25] having over the course of this season [07:27] about Jewish Christian relations? I mean [07:29] I going back to a little bit of what I [07:32] was saying. It goes back to when we [07:34] learn to rediscover what is the larger [07:36] scope of esquetology. What is the the [07:39] ultimate purpose and goal of of [07:42] esquetology? It we learn to distinguish [07:44] between the details of our expectations [07:47] and what I would call the ultimate hope [07:49] of those ex that that those expectations [07:52] express like the consummation of his [07:54] kingdom, the end of evil and sin, right? [07:57] the rule of God's perfect justice and [07:59] peace. Those are the things that from a [08:01] Jewish and Christian perspective we [08:04] share. The Jewish people also share this [08:06] hope of u which how they describe asum [08:10] the world will be restored God's justice [08:12] will prevail right and war and [08:14] oppression will have the fi won't have [08:16] the final word but god will and the [08:18] world will be filled with a knowledge of [08:20] god right we as as as you know [08:23] Judeo-Christian tradition agree on this [08:27] shared hope of esquetology and to the [08:29] extent that we make emphasis on those [08:31] elements I think we can wow [08:34] the limits are are are unreachable, you [08:37] know, I mean, or or rather are limitless [08:40] the things that we can do together [08:42] because we we have a shared a shared [08:45] vision of a hopeful future and [08:46] understanding that the work that we do, [08:48] whether it's in the social justice [08:49] realm, in the political advocacy realm, [08:52] in the humanitarian realm, we know that [08:55] all the work that we doing is not in [08:57] vain. it would all come to its ultimate [09:00] ma manifestation when when God's kingdom [09:02] is made true throughout the world. [09:04] Right? That is what we believe. And I [09:06] think that we can work towards a better [09:07] future together if we focus on those [09:09] aspects of of of uh of of of the hope [09:13] that we both share as a people. And this [09:16] is something that I've gained more as [09:17] I've learned to interact of course with [09:19] more Jewish thought and Judaism. I [09:21] honestly as a Christian even though I I [09:23] was a Christian for many years and went [09:25] to seminary I knew very little about [09:26] Judaism right and and so very little [09:29] about what Judaism believed and [09:31] practiced. Of course, you you know the [09:33] basics. You know, they observe Shabbat. [09:35] They observe the biblical feasts, but [09:36] how they do those things can vary [09:38] depending on particular, you know, [09:40] Jewish communities that that you're [09:42] meeting with, for example, and and even [09:44] depending on the different expressions [09:45] of Judaism. But even Judaism itself [09:48] within their diversity, they agree on a [09:52] shared hope of the future. And I think [09:55] that's a lesson for us even as [09:57] Christians because oftentimes again [09:59] esquetology is seen as something [10:01] divisive rather than uniting. And I [10:04] think that was the vision of the apostle [10:05] Paul originally that the hope of Christ [10:07] is coming was a unifying belief not a [10:10] dividing one. And I think that needs to [10:12] change not only in terms of Jewish [10:14] Christian relations but let me let me [10:16] add within the Christian community [10:18] itself. [10:19] >> So there there I think is a really [10:21] interesting question. And I I do want to [10:23] ask you, Jesse, because if you think [10:25] about esquetology historically, [10:28] >> like I started this episode describing a [10:31] little bit, there is in early church [10:33] history, obviously a very healthy [10:35] interest in esquetology among the early [10:37] churches. And it's important to note [10:39] that among those early churches, you [10:41] also have a lot of, you know, attempts [10:42] to work out the relationship between [10:44] Jews and Gentiles because many members [10:47] of those early churches were Jewish [10:49] people integrating for the first time [10:51] Gentiles into their community of faith. [10:54] It it was, you know, initially [10:56] Christianity was essentially a Jewish [10:58] sect that happened to integrate a small [11:00] number of Gentiles until it really [11:02] spread to the gentile world in mass. [11:04] After that though, I mean, it's easy to [11:05] see how you would you would see a [11:07] pretty, you know, close relationship [11:10] between Jews and Christians working out [11:11] esquetology and figuring out each [11:13] other's roles in that context. [11:15] >> But you get to a point where for many [11:18] centuries, there really is not a clear [11:21] role for the Jewish people either in the [11:24] life of the church because the church is [11:26] predominantly gentile or in in general [11:28] certain certainly not in esqueological [11:31] terms. You know, we'll get to this in a [11:33] later episode, but replacement theology [11:35] becomes a big thing, obviously. And it's [11:37] sort of a more recent phenomenon, [11:39] relatively speaking. I mean, it's still [11:41] now several hundred years old, but in [11:43] the in the context of 2,000 years of [11:44] church history, it's a relatively recent [11:46] phenomenon that the Jewish people are [11:48] very central to many esqueological [11:51] frameworks that Christians work work [11:53] through. So maybe let's just start [11:55] there. How did they get to a point where [11:58] they became central again to the way [12:00] that Christians think about esquetology? [12:02] This idea that they have a role to play [12:04] in esquetology that was sort of [12:06] dismissed for for a very long time. And [12:09] can you give us a walk through of which [12:12] esquetology frameworks are are creating [12:14] that role for the Jewish people that was [12:16] really dismissed for for a long time? [12:19] >> Yeah. So you know to to go back to the [12:21] beginning of your question you know it I [12:24] think it started at least from the [12:26] Protestant Reformation since the [12:27] reformation itself the second generation [12:29] of reformation I always argue continued [12:32] the reformation where Martin Luther [12:34] failed to continue which was applying [12:36] the principles of the reformation to [12:38] esquetology which was what many of these [12:41] early thinkers in the in in the in that [12:44] second generation early 17th century [12:46] believers started articulating and [12:48] developing moving forward all the way [12:51] until the 19th century. You know, we we [12:54] have even some of the most famous [12:56] speakers like Martin uh sorry uh uh [12:58] Charles Spurgeon who you know is also [13:00] nicknamed the last of the Puritans [13:03] articulating a premillennial perspective [13:05] on the Jewish people and emphasizing [13:08] that this is one of the most obvious and [13:10] greatest hopes that we share as [13:12] Christians. I'm paraphrasing of course [13:13] and and the most neglected amongst us. [13:16] he claimed, right? And you can you can [13:17] find this quote actually in the Puritan [13:19] Hope by Ian Ian Murray. Um there's a [13:22] great uh section uh towards the end of [13:24] that book on Charles Spurgeon and how [13:26] the Puritans interpreted esquetology in [13:29] the end times. It's a great book by the [13:30] way. I highly recommend it. And and so [13:33] you you started seeing already an [13:35] emphasis on understanding that God is [13:39] not done with the Jewish people. And of [13:41] course, this is not happening in a [13:43] vacuum. They're interacting with the [13:44] Jewish people as they're developing this [13:47] theology. The Jewish people at this [13:48] moment, they're still mostly dispersed [13:50] across Europe and and you know, parts of [13:53] the Americas ultimately or eventually. [13:56] And and so they see the Jewish people [13:58] going through a series of circumstances [14:01] in life that the prophets proclaimed and [14:04] prophesied, but also prophesied their [14:07] particular hope and restoration. And so [14:10] we started wondering and being curious [14:13] about this. And of course late in the [14:16] early 19th century we have William Darby [14:18] who became the face of dispensationalism [14:21] who started developing more of a [14:24] structured way of really interpreting [14:26] the Bible which later became understood [14:28] as dispensationalism. He didn't quite [14:30] coin the phrase dispensationalism but he [14:33] definitely developed the whole structure [14:34] of it that later became the most popular [14:38] u you know and it's attributed due to [14:39] the fact that it was published in one of [14:42] the most popular uh bibles published in [14:45] the late 19th century and early 20th [14:48] century the Scullfield Bible right and [14:50] of course the Scoffield Bible came with [14:51] it was the first actually study Bible [14:53] which to to the surprise of many was [14:55] more than just a book that that promoted [14:58] esquetology it was the first actual [15:00] study Bible that provided study notes on [15:03] all series of passages all across the [15:04] Bible and it included notes on the [15:07] millennium and and the end times. And [15:09] so, you know, of course, later works [15:11] like that I mentioned earlier, like the [15:13] Left Behind series, popularized this and [15:16] I think created even more confusion [15:18] because you you you have a lot of people [15:20] now exposed to what they think the [15:22] Christian Bible teaches, but no one [15:24] there to explain to them and no one [15:26] there to kind of give them nuances and [15:28] and and and and help them understand the [15:31] the complexity of actually many of the [15:33] things that were exposed in those [15:34] series. So we are today where we've [15:38] created a a hodgepodge of of different [15:40] reactions and articulations of [15:42] esquetology. Of course I can give you [15:44] the main frameworks that that exist [15:47] today. But I think among that the Jewish [15:50] community has acquired a a distrust [15:53] towards us. In fact, I I actually [15:55] articulated in three frameworks that I [15:58] that I wrote down I wanted to share, [15:59] which was um the first one was a [16:01] apocalyptic affixation, which I define [16:04] as an excessive preoccupation with the [16:08] Jewish people's anticipated role in end [16:11] times events that overshadows concern [16:14] for their lives today. Right? So, it's [16:16] it's is these folks that just they they [16:19] they you know, they understand [16:20] esquetology. They they study it a lot, [16:23] but they they tend to emphasize elements [16:26] of end times in ways that have created [16:28] distrust among the Jewish people because [16:30] it's it's about, you know, them coming. [16:33] And I hear it all the time from my [16:34] Jewish friends, you know, do you want us [16:36] to all come to Israel because that will [16:38] usher in the kingdom of God? And I have [16:41] to tell them, and this is true in [16:43] Judaism and Christianity, no human being [16:46] can cause the kingdom of God to come. [16:48] All right? Only God can cause the [16:50] kingdom of God to come. and be [16:51] consummated. And that's true in both [16:53] Judaism and in both Christian Orthodoxy. [16:56] We don't believe that we can cause the [16:58] second Christ or that the Jewish people [17:00] coming to Israel will cause the second [17:03] Christ uh or the second coming of Christ [17:06] uh to come. That's not articulated in [17:08] any traditional Orthodox Christianity [17:10] whatsoever. But somehow this perception [17:13] was understood and I believe in [17:15] connection to a lot of these series that [17:17] popularized more of a dispensational [17:20] articulation of esquetology with no one [17:22] there to kind of give more nuance to the [17:24] conversation. So I don't know if that [17:26] answer your question but but ultimately [17:28] we we we find ourselves there and and I [17:30] would add to that last category [17:32] apocalyptic affixation. There's also [17:34] theological indifference, which is we [17:36] encounter the opposite extreme, an [17:38] approach that leaves basically no [17:40] meaningful place for the Jewish people. [17:41] Right. You mentioned you mentioned uh [17:43] replacement theology, but I I'll I'll [17:45] leave it at that. And I won't add more [17:46] to that in case you want to pick that up [17:49] much later in the conversation. But but [17:50] yeah, but that's where I think we are [17:52] and and how, you know, much of this [17:54] conversation has became so convoluted [17:57] with, you know, not not ideas that are [18:00] not reflective of what we would consider [18:02] Orthodox Christianity even and and and [18:04] even of these traditional schools. [18:06] >> That makes that makes sense. I I think [18:08] what I what I want to do maybe for a [18:10] moment is just take a step back and and [18:11] describe a bit of the the impact this [18:14] confusion has had in in a lot of ways. [18:17] Thank you for listening so far. We'll be [18:18] right back after a quick word from this [18:20] episode sponsor. This episode is [18:22] sponsored by the Public Interest [18:23] Fellowship, which aims to enrich the [18:25] political and cultural life of the [18:27] United States through talent [18:29] development. Applications are now open [18:30] for the Public Interest Fellowship's [18:32] 2-year flagship fellowship. This program [18:35] for new and recent graduates provides a [18:37] unique combination of work and study [18:39] designed to advance fellows pursuit of [18:41] careers devoted to the public interest. [18:42] In the show notes, you can find a link [18:44] with more information on how to apply. [18:46] And now back to the show. There are [18:48] there are a couple of common [18:50] misconceptions that the the deeper we go [18:53] either in you know study or in [18:55] conversations that you and I have Jesse [18:57] and not just on camera but off camera as [19:00] well I think some of the misconceptions [19:02] become more clear that okay there's [19:04] something a little off here would be one [19:06] that there is any any one escatological [19:09] framework that is responsible for you [19:13] know creating a a specific and important [19:15] role for the Jewish people in in the end [19:18] times. It's pretty crazy. I was reading [19:21] a book over the summer by Donald Lewis. [19:23] I don't know if you've read this book, [19:24] Chesse. It's a history of Christian [19:26] Zionism and a lot of it's like [19:28] theological history and he traces just [19:32] how complex things were especially in [19:35] the early reformation and then in the as [19:37] you move forward a couple centuries into [19:39] the English Puritan movement, the [19:41] American Puritan movement, there's I [19:43] mean there's a halfozen different [19:44] variances of esquetology that all make [19:48] some space for the the Jewish people and [19:50] they're all across the board in terms of [19:52] what where they land on the issues that [19:54] people like to argue about the most [19:55] which is mostly timing. Yeah. Is it an [19:57] amillennial framework? Is it a [19:59] premillennial postmillennial framework? [20:01] Is it dispensationalist? Doesn't really [20:03] matter. I mean they true they they [20:06] disagree. All these frameworks disagree [20:08] on that the stuff that people like to [20:09] argue about the most which is the timing [20:11] of the return of Jesus. But it they all [20:13] at the same time had this sort of common [20:16] through line for the most part. [20:18] Obviously, I don't want to speak in [20:19] absolute terms, but generally speaking, [20:22] most of these frameworks had a common [20:23] through line that they upheld this [20:25] principle of restorationism and more [20:28] specifically spiritual restorationism [20:29] for the Jewish people. That they [20:31] believed Paul's writings, the New [20:33] Testament made clear that there would be [20:35] some future for the Jewish people, that [20:37] that God was was not done with the [20:38] Jewish people, [20:40] >> correct? [20:40] >> In terminology that that Christians [20:42] would would use. That I think was [20:44] fascinating to me that it was just kind [20:47] of assumed for for a quite a long time. [20:50] Once we reached that point where we [20:51] agreed again that the Jewish people [20:53] matter and are important, everyone sort [20:55] of agreed on that for for a while and it [20:56] was just assumed. The flip side of that [20:59] is that some of the the frameworks that [21:01] people have commonly associated with [21:04] Christian Zionism or very strong support [21:06] for the Jewish people like [21:07] dispensationalism. I mean it's you're [21:10] kind of making assumptions that it's [21:12] always been that way and it hasn't [21:13] necessarily like William William Darby [21:15] this is something else I found [21:16] interesting and reading again Donald [21:17] Lewis or Walter Russell me's got some [21:20] good work on this as well in his book [21:21] Arc of a Covenant Darby was not a [21:24] Christian Zionist like [laughter] he was [21:25] pretty apathetic he was like I don't [21:27] think the Jews really matter that much [21:29] certainly not in any political sense or [21:31] contemporary sense so the idea that [21:33] dispensationalism is you know always [21:36] been Christian Zionist or or very [21:38] supportive of the Jewish people is also [21:40] I think a very common misconception and [21:43] >> it to your I guess to your point it [21:45] leaves us with a lot of confusion [21:48] [laughter] [21:49] >> like how do you unpack and unravel this [21:50] this web and trying to understand not [21:53] just what these different esquetology [21:55] frameworks have to say about you know [21:57] the end times the return of Jesus or [21:59] whatever but also what they have to say [22:01] about the Jewish people and you really [22:02] do find them I think these labels more [22:05] confusing than not I know one of the [22:06] things that you have have mentioned and [22:09] we we'll get to this in a moment is that [22:10] you know biblical theology is just as [22:13] important as systematic theology. [22:15] Obviously there are some some limits to [22:18] systematic theology. You've you've [22:20] described a little bit the the impact [22:23] that esquetology has had on Jewish [22:25] Christian relations in terms of creating [22:26] some skepticism or mistrust which I [22:29] think is very accurate description. But [22:31] I do want to ask you, can you can you [22:33] describe for us how far can esquetology [22:35] go in helping us given this confusion, [22:38] this this web of different frameworks to [22:41] choose from? And what else matters [22:43] besides esquetology? Like how do you [22:45] pick apart these frameworks and make [22:47] sense of them? And for the purposes of [22:49] our conversation, most specifically make [22:51] sense of what if any role do the Jewish [22:53] people have to play within this this [22:56] idea. [22:56] >> Yeah. Well, I think we should be both as [23:00] a Jewish and Christian community be [23:02] pursuing this vision, esqueological [23:05] vision of Zion, right? Going back to [23:07] emphasizing this shared hope and that [23:10] shared hope be the fuel that cultivates [23:14] and develops Jewish Christian relations [23:16] in all areas of life, humanitarian, [23:18] political advocacy, you know, education, [23:21] etc. I I I I think for me that is the it [23:25] it was the greatest takeaway for for [23:27] that what what brought me back to [23:28] esquetology is to be reminded of that [23:31] that I need to remind my church that the [23:35] greatest hope we have now the greatest [23:37] hope the early the first church had the [23:39] first century believers had was the [23:41] first coming of the Messiah the greatest [23:44] hope we now have as a community is the [23:46] second coming of the Messiah and of [23:48] course the Jewish people are expecting [23:50] the coming of the Messiah we disagree [23:51] on, you know, will this be his first or [23:54] second visit? But I always say we can go [23:56] we can we can ask the messiah when he [23:58] gets here. He'll tell us where he [23:59] whether or not he's been here before. [24:01] And uh from an he basically said the [24:04] same thing. It's like just figure it out [24:06] when he gets here. We'll ask [24:07] >> we'll just figure it out. But why is [24:09] this? I want to share with you a quote [24:11] that I always share with all of our [24:13] pastors that we take to Israel. And I I [24:16] share I I mostly share it with them at a [24:18] specific location in Msada actually [24:21] which is is is strange to mention Msada [24:23] because it's not like a historical [24:25] biblical site but it is a modern [24:28] contemporary site and something very [24:30] special happened in Messiah that it was [24:31] a piece of scroll that was found there [24:33] when that site was discovered I believe [24:35] by the general former general that [24:37] served in the IDF. I can't recall his [24:39] name at the moment. There's a there's [24:41] when you go visit the site, there is a [24:43] synagogue that you can go and the the [24:46] the rebels were gathering in that [24:50] synagogue. And so when they rediscovered [24:52] Masada, they discovered this piece of of [24:55] uh Torah scripture and it it was [24:57] actually was a piece of prophetic [24:59] scripture, Ezekiel 37. It was a portion [25:02] of the valley of the dry bones. Wow. [25:04] What a powerful message of the [25:06] restoration that is being promised by [25:09] the prophet Ezekiel manifested in these [25:12] shattering bones that become human [25:14] beings right in such a vivid [25:16] imagination. Well, this is Charles [25:18] Spurgeon interpretation of that passage [25:21] if you mind if I read it to you because [25:23] his his [25:25] >> his interpretation his quote is going to [25:28] highlight two things. It's going to it's [25:30] going to show you where he's breaking [25:32] away in terms of how this passage has [25:35] been interpreted especially in his time [25:37] and and where this passage actually [25:39] leads. So check this out. You see he [25:41] begins by saying this vision the vision [25:42] of the valley of the dry bones has been [25:44] used from the time of Jerome onwards [25:47] meaning the second century onwards as a [25:50] description of the resurrection. That [25:52] topic is altogether foreign to the [25:54] subject at hand and could not be by by [25:56] any possibility have crept into the [25:59] prophet's mind. He was talking about the [26:01] people of Israel and prophesying [26:02] concerning them. And evidently the [26:04] vision according to God's own [26:06] interpretation of it was concerning them [26:09] and them alone. For quoting uh Spurgeon, [26:12] these bones are the whole house of [26:15] Israel. He was not considering the [26:17] reformation of either Luther or [26:19] Whitfield or about the revival of one [26:21] church or another. No, he was talking [26:22] about his own people, his own race, and [26:24] his own tribe. He was he surely ought to [26:26] have known his own mind. And led by the [26:29] Holy Spirit, he gives us an explanation [26:31] of the vision. Not thus says the Lord, [26:34] my dying church shall be restored, but I [26:37] will bring my people out of their graves [26:39] and bring them into the land of Israel. [26:41] And then he warns the preacher, the [26:43] preacher of God's truth should not give [26:45] up the Holy Spirit's meaning. He should [26:47] not take care that he does not even put [26:49] it in the background. What he's talking [26:52] about this basic hermeneutics. If the [26:54] text is telling you clearly this is how [26:57] God is interpreting, he says that the [26:59] dry bones are my people Israel. I will [27:01] bring them to the land of Israel. [27:03] Spurgeon is saying you should be careful [27:05] of violating that that that uh [27:08] revelation. That is clear revelation. [27:10] And it needs no interpretation. God [27:12] himself interpreted for you. And he get [27:14] he ends with two conclusions. He says [27:17] first based on this passage. First, [27:20] there's to be a political restoration of [27:22] the Jews. And and mind you, there's no [27:25] Israel in the time of Charles Spurgeon. [27:27] He says, "Israel is now blotted out from [27:29] the map of the nations. Her sons are [27:31] scattered far and wide. Her daughters [27:33] mourn beside all the rivers of the [27:34] earth. Her sacred song is hushed. No [27:37] king reigns in Jerusalem. She brings [27:39] forth no governors among her tribes, but [27:41] she is to be restored. She is to be [27:43] restored as from the dead after. And and [27:46] then he says, and then he ends, but [27:48] there is a second meaning here. Israel [27:50] is to have a spiritual restoration or a [27:53] conversion. Both the text and the [27:56] context teach this. End of quote. So [27:59] when we let the text speak for itself [28:01] when we yes we focus on the you know the [28:04] point I bring this quote is because when [28:06] we focus on the the shared hope that we [28:09] have in esquetology and we go back to [28:12] also emphasizing that that is not the [28:14] only lens in which we engage and [28:17] understand the Jewish people's role in [28:19] scripture. It is also hermeneutics. It [28:21] is also biblical theology. It is also [28:24] just preaching the Bible as the Bible [28:27] preaches itself. Right. And here [28:29] Spurgeon gives us a clear example [28:31] because in his time there was no [28:32] political nation or modern state of [28:34] Israel. There was no political reason [28:37] for him to to create this interpretation [28:40] and he w he didn't consider himself [28:42] dispensational at all. He was actually a [28:45] premillennialist and a Calvinist. So you [28:47] see Spurgeon showing an example of what [28:50] a biblical theology looks like when [28:52] you're faithful to the text and how that [28:54] can can positively project on the Jewish [28:56] people because Spurgeon preached this 8 [28:59] decades before 1948. Just 80 years [29:03] before 1948. Imagine that if Spurgeon [29:06] would have been alive. What a prophetic [29:08] voice. Right. So anyways, I probably [29:10] said too much, but [29:11] >> no, it's it's really interesting and I'm [29:12] I'm formulating some some takeaways in [29:16] my head as we as we get ready to wrap up [29:18] this episode, Jesse. And I think one of [29:20] the things that that I find really [29:22] interesting about that last statement [29:23] you just made, there is frequently I [29:25] think a sense in which one perhaps one [29:28] of the the weaknesses of the historicist [29:31] interpretive model that really became [29:33] popularized during the reformation is [29:35] that it leans so much into the idea that [29:38] the Bible can explain our current [29:40] context or the events that we experience [29:42] on a day-to-day basis, which is is true, [29:44] but it it leaned into that so much that [29:47] it almost kind of aired on the side of [29:49] allowing those events to shape the way [29:51] that we interpret the Bible and not the [29:52] other way around. [29:53] >> Yeah. [29:54] >> And it's really remarkable that someone [29:56] like Spurgeon would say, you know, [29:58] current events are not what current [30:01] events do not interpret the Bible. The [30:02] Bible interprets current events and [30:04] Israel doesn't exist. But there's [30:05] something in the text that convinced him [30:07] at least that Israel would exist in the [30:09] future despite the fact that current [30:11] events gave him no evidence of that. [30:13] That's a really interesting I think [30:15] important frame of reference to [30:17] understand about the way that people [30:18] started to think about in during that [30:20] time period especially started to think [30:22] about the Jewish people in in a slightly [30:24] different way. [30:25] >> And of course Spurgeon was more one of [30:26] many more other voices that were you [30:28] know prophetically preaching the same [30:30] message. [30:31] >> Yeah. And Martin Lloyd Jones is another, [30:34] you know, 19th century Presbyterian [30:36] great minister of the of the scriptures [30:38] who although he considered himself an [30:41] amalillennial for example, he was also [30:43] an amalennialist. He was he deferred in [30:46] terms of esquetology with Spurgeon but [30:48] nonetheless when he came to the text and [30:50] he was known as one of the greatest [30:51] expositor of this 20th century when he [30:54] came to the text he came to what the [30:55] text said regarding the Jewish people [30:57] and I think that's where the you know [30:59] where the answer is because we as [31:01] Judaism and Christianity we believe in [31:03] the holy scriptures and we believe that [31:04] the holy scriptures are true and I [31:07] believe we should rest our confidence [31:09] back to the holy scriptures as the [31:11] people of the book and trust that the [31:13] holy scriptures will guide us through [31:15] this journey. We just got to be faithful [31:17] to the book and preach what it says. Not [31:19] let the the theology and the, you know, [31:22] all of the esqueological differences [31:24] convolute the conversation. It is part [31:26] of the conversation, but it's not the [31:28] central part of the conversation and [31:30] we're kind of missing the big picture as [31:32] we, you know, lose focus of of where we [31:34] are. So, you know, and there's so many [31:36] more voices and I feel like the the, you [31:39] know, the magnifying the the loud people [31:42] today have popularized just these ex, [31:46] you know, unique voices in such large [31:49] traditions that it's unfair to to allow [31:53] them only to define this conversation. [31:54] We need to push back on that and say, [31:56] "No, let's go back to the text and and [31:58] revisit this beautiful tradition and the [32:00] reformation if we want to if we want to [32:02] start there." all of these old school [32:04] voices that prophetically preach from [32:06] their pulpits despite their [32:08] esqueological differences that the [32:10] Jewish people would return and that [32:12] there's nothing more sure of that. I'd [32:14] like to lead people actually to the [32:15] Gospel Coalition. There's an article [32:17] written there by Gerald McDermott, Dr. [32:20] Gerald McDermott on the tradition of the [32:22] reformation. If I can remember the name, [32:24] it's called the reformed tradition on [32:26] Israel is diverse. So if you go to the [32:28] Gospel Coalition, he wrote a great [32:31] article on that. He was one of the first [32:32] people to actually provoke my thought. I [32:34] never, you know, when I started really [32:36] reading reformed theology. I just relied [32:39] on contemporary resources. I never [32:41] realized that there's a large rich [32:44] tradition on restorationism and and what [32:47] which today we would call Christian [32:48] Zionism and I would call biblical [32:51] Christian Zionism because some of the [32:53] oldest voices on this matter have made [32:55] such great arguments in favor of it [32:58] because they've wrestled with some of [32:59] the same questions we have today. So, [33:01] it's it's not really a new conversation, [33:03] but I want to encourage people to go [33:05] there, read that article. Um, and and I [33:08] encourage you to go back to the book. [33:10] Let's go back to being the people of the [33:11] book. [33:11] >> Yeah, that's great, Jesse. Thank you. [33:14] Thank you for that recommendation. We'll [33:15] make sure in the show notes that we put [33:17] a link to that article uh by Gerald [33:19] McDermott as well as I want to link to [33:22] Ezekiel 37. I think it'd also be really [33:24] good for anyone listening to go back and [33:27] read that as well. I'm going to give you [33:29] just a few highle takeaways, Jesse, that [33:32] I have and see if you have any anything [33:35] you want to add and then we're going to [33:36] go ahead and wrap this up because we've [33:37] got lots of good stuff to say for the [33:39] next episode. I think high level it [33:42] seems that the the takeaways for me at [33:44] least are that esquetology is it's [33:46] important. It's not everything. It is [33:49] historically pretty fluid actually and [33:52] there's a lot of agreement and [33:53] disagreement about this. No one [33:55] framework has a monopoly on, you know, [33:57] faithful interpretation of scripture. [34:00] The Bible definitely should inform our [34:03] esquetology and not the other way [34:05] around. I mean, you want to bring the [34:07] Bible to the table to inform the way [34:09] that we view the world and not allow our [34:12] worldview to inform the way that we read [34:14] the Bible. We also, I think, want to [34:16] think about the Bible the same way when [34:18] we get into some of these deeper [34:19] questions about the Jewish people, which [34:21] we're going to in the next several [34:23] episodes. So definitely you can expect [34:25] to hear Jesse reading more scripture as [34:28] we get into the next several episodes. [34:30] Just a heads up, Jesse, I'm gonna ask [34:31] you to to do that. But is there anything [34:33] that you want to add as we sort of wrap [34:35] up this this part of our conversation? [34:38] >> Yeah, I would I would start by saying, [34:40] you know, earlier I mentioned that some [34:42] of the unhelpful approaches to this [34:45] conversation can be described as um you [34:47] know, apocalyptic affixation and [34:48] theological indifference. There's a [34:50] third approach that I describe which I [34:52] think describes the the approach I [34:54] engage in in Jewish Christian solidarity [34:57] and Jewish Christian relations is [34:58] covenantal solidarity which is [35:01] recognizing God's continuing covenantal [35:04] faithfulness to Israel and expressing [35:07] that conviction through gratitude, [35:09] friendship, respect and responsibility [35:11] toward the Jewish people. Because [35:13] there's one thing that the Bible is [35:16] completely unambiguous about. God is [35:19] faithful to his people Israel. And we [35:21] see that over and over and over again. [35:24] You know, we always hear from the other [35:25] side, especially, you know, the [35:26] anti-Jewish and anti- and everything, [35:29] you know, theologians. [35:32] It Israel disqualified itself because it [35:35] was rebellious and it was this and they [35:37] give you all of these numerous passages [35:40] where Israel has been unfaithful. And I [35:42] tell them, "Okay, can you go back to uh [35:45] Leviticus 27 or Psalm 106 and see how [35:50] the priests and the Levites, they sung [35:52] about a thousand years of Israelite [35:54] rebellion and how they sold their [35:56] children to pagan gods and a horde after [35:59] other pagan gods and broke their [36:00] covenant with God." And we have the book [36:02] of Hosea, a whole book of Hosea talking [36:05] about Israel as a harlot. But what is [36:07] the overarching message is that God is [36:10] rejecting Israel. There's a passage, [36:12] there's a one passage that brings it all [36:14] together, folks, and I'm going to give [36:15] it to you. Isaiah 54:7, and it's [36:18] actually my favorite Hebrew text. Isaiah [36:20] 54:7 says, "For a brief moment, I [36:23] abandon you, but in great mercies I will [36:27] gather you again." And that statement is [36:29] remarkable for two reasons. Number one, [36:31] because God acknowledges judgment. Yes, [36:33] I have abandoned you, but he says, "For [36:35] a very brief moment." And in the Hebrew, [36:37] he exaggerates the the briefness. He [36:40] says actually it's such a small instant [36:43] compared to his great mercies and that [36:45] great mercies is manifested in [36:47] restoration is manifested in his [36:49] unending mercies. No matter how many [36:51] thousands of years or generations the [36:54] people of Israel may rebel against God, [36:56] God will always have mercy for them. And [36:58] that's what he's shown us. If he's [37:00] emphasized the rebellion over and over [37:02] again is for the scriptures doing that [37:04] to emphasize God's unbreaking merciful [37:07] love loving character to his people. And [37:10] that's great for not only the Jewish [37:12] people, it's great for all of us, for [37:14] the church as well. Because if God is [37:16] faithful to his covenant, to them, that [37:19] means he's faithful to us who have been [37:21] in who have been grafted in. We've been [37:25] made co-shares and co-airs of the [37:28] promises of Abraham. So God must fulfill [37:30] his promises of Abraham. And I could [37:33] keep going, but I'll leave you guys with [37:35] that that encouragement. go back to the [37:38] text and and see if you probably see [37:40] yourself as well within the covenantal [37:43] solidarity, whether you see the [37:45] scriptures itself saying what we've been [37:47] saying this whole this whole hour. Thank [37:49] you, man. Appreciate the time. [37:50] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you you've [37:52] given a great sneak preview of the next [37:54] episode already. If you couldn't guess [37:56] based on what Jesse was just sharing, [37:59] the next episode we're going to dive [38:00] into God's covenant with Abraham. Really [38:03] going to go back to the beginning. [38:04] Absolutely. We we kind of fast forward [38:06] to the end times today and now we're [38:08] going to rewind to go all the way back [38:09] to the beginning next next episode. [38:11] >> We have to [38:12] >> we've got to Yeah. So, we're gonna we're [38:14] gonna have a good time talking about [38:15] that. What exactly did God promise to [38:17] Abraham? How is that relevant today and [38:20] and just set some some groundwork I [38:21] think for, you know, basic building [38:23] blocks working our way through the Bible [38:25] and and talking about how God speaks [38:28] about some of these issues. So, look [38:29] forward to that quite a bit. Thank you, [38:31] Jesse, for your time today. And of [38:34] course, thank you to Lindsay, our [38:35] producer, for working on everything for [38:37] us to to make this episode possible. We [38:40] we also just want to say thank you to [38:42] everyone to listening. You know, this is [38:43] some pretty heavy material. [laughter] [38:46] A lot of stuff being thrown at you and [38:48] Jesse and I having fun bantering back [38:50] and forth, but we appreciate you for [38:52] listening to us banter and we hope to [38:55] see you next time. Thank you everyone. [38:57] >> See you guys. [38:58] >> For more episodes like this, please of [39:00] course subscribe to Discover Your Roots. [39:01] Wherever you get your podcast, you'll [39:03] get notifications when the next episode [39:04] drops. If you like this podcast as well, [39:06] we also always of course appreciate it [39:08] when you leave us review, share with [39:10] your friends, give it a like, whatever [39:12] works for you. And we look forward to uh [39:15] seeing you next next time. Thanks [39:17] everyone.
