Transcript [00:14] Hi everyone, welcome to another edition [00:16] of the Swarm Chatter podcast. On this [00:18] episode of the podcast, I'm going to be [00:19] joined once again by Rabbi David [00:22] Bashvkin, who is the founder and host of [00:24] 1840 and 1840 podcast. And uh we'll be [00:27] discussing new book. I read this over [00:29] Shabas. And this is a book, a movement, [00:32] a Twitter account, many things in one. [00:34] For those that are familiar with Twitter [00:36] X when it started, it was Twitter, I [00:38] think, right? And uh I should mention [00:40] that David was on the podcast many years [00:42] ago. It wasn't really the podcast at [00:44] that point. It was still the Zoom, not [00:46] Zoom. It was still the It was It was [00:48] Twitter slash Periscope and then it [00:50] became X. The whole thing was live. [00:52] Yeah. very I was I I still had my old [00:54] OnePlus phone. The little camera would [00:56] pop up. If you listen to those those [00:57] recordings, you'll still see that. So, [00:59] >> this is really opportunity. We've talked [01:01] over the years. We never got a chance to [01:02] get together and have another episode. [01:03] Now, your book is out. This is the [01:05] opportunity to do something again. So, [01:07] thank you for joining me once again. [01:08] >> Nah, this is genuinely my privilege and [01:10] pleasure. We've known each other for so [01:12] many years. We look we discuss a lot [01:14] about the overlap where it's different [01:16] and I genuinely like I think your work [01:18] in this farm chatter what it's become is [01:21] so unbelievable. This is a massive [01:23] privilege for me, but it is incredibly [01:25] distracting to sit surrounded by your [01:27] library because it's the only thing I'm [01:29] looking at, [01:30] >> but but thank you for having me. [01:31] >> Yeah, we can get into some of that. We [01:33] can talk about some of that maybe later [01:34] if you want. Okay, so let's start off as [01:36] I do all Farm Charter episodes, even [01:37] though maybe we discussed it, but so [01:39] many years ago listeners don't remember. [01:40] I don't remember. Tell the listeners a [01:42] little bit about yourself and your [01:43] background. [01:43] >> Sure. So, my name is David Bashvkin. [01:46] That's what my parents and all my close [01:48] friends though not everybody can [01:49] pronounce David. So I online I sometimes [01:53] use David because I can't stand people [01:55] calling me David or Davided. I'm a good [01:57] David. I've demoted people before. If [01:59] you call me Davidid I'm going to demote [02:01] you to David. It's a demotion. Um I grew [02:04] up in the five towns like in the in the [02:06] 90s of the five towns. I studied I went [02:09] to Southshore old Salore with Revanyan [02:12] Kamitki. I went to high school in DRS [02:16] review Kamitki. I started in Narit [02:18] Israel in Yeshiva Chalim. Then I studied [02:21] for four years in Narrall by Revusbam [02:25] Rev Ezra Zatal who passed away just [02:29] about a year ago uh and a little bit by [02:31] Ri Burkowitz and then I did Smika in Yu. [02:35] I went to actually I went to YU to study [02:37] Rivuk. I think I'm the only person who [02:39] switched to YU to study. I went to study [02:42] Rift Sadd uh by Yakov Elman who was a [02:46] student of Hutner who wrote he who [02:48] became a more academic later in his [02:49] career but I brought him back to his [02:50] roots to study Razuk and then um then I [02:55] did a PhD at the new school which is not [02:58] a new school. It was a school that was [02:59] founded for refugees, Jewish refugees [03:02] actually from World War II. I wish it [03:04] remembered its Jewish roots more. I did [03:06] a PhD in public policy. I've worked for [03:09] NCSY. I've worked for Birthright and now [03:12] I'm really focused on 1840 and I also [03:15] teach in Yeshua University. So that's [03:17] that's that's the basic that's the basic [03:20] bio. [03:21] >> And you've written some books. [03:23] >> I've written away your books. I didn't [03:24] forget about that. [03:25] >> Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We [03:26] got [03:27] >> synagogue. Yeah. Israimisar. [03:29] >> My first book was the safer which [03:31] actually I I think the pieces talk they [03:34] hold up the pieces. It's on Hebrew [03:35] books. [03:38] That was the first when you you probably [03:40] know this too. What they say it by by [03:43] simp that like you have like what's your [03:45] first thing going to be? So I wanted my [03:47] first thing to be bishanon. I can I can [03:50] write in Hebrew. I can read a proper [03:52] Hebrew. [03:53] >> Yeah. Exactly. And then you then you can [03:55] do the fun. So I did that. I wrote a [03:58] book on sin and failure in Jewish [03:59] thought. That's called synagogue. Um I [04:02] wrote a hagada with NCSY. [04:05] Um I think I'm missing something. Um, [04:08] >> oh, and I wrote top five. Top five and I [04:10] wrote [04:10] >> and you used to write every week. [04:13] >> I love the mishb I was literally um and [04:16] I wrote yeah a humor a book on humor [04:18] called top five. Um, that was a [04:20] collection of my columns there. It's the [04:22] same strategy. I write articles then [04:23] collected in a book then you got your [04:25] next book going. So [04:26] >> although synagogue was a book that [04:27] wasn't articles [04:29] >> but but you know what it some of those [04:31] were published beforehand if you look [04:32] care and and then I expanded them. [04:34] Exactly. your Hagada, which was the [04:37] topic of our first conversation all [04:38] those years ago. I'll tell you, my wife [04:39] still uses it every year. It's a fun [04:41] Hagada. [04:43] She enjoys it. I know it's NCSY Hagada, [04:45] but [04:45] >> it comes. Yeah. Regular people, so to [04:48] speak. Not only if you're, you know, [04:50] that means a lot to [04:51] >> the whole point of the that I did cuz [04:53] you know this when you get a the problem [04:55] is you want to just say kish it's 11 [04:58] pages because every commentary all the [05:01] all the [05:03] so I just wanted it where like there's [05:05] one page and one idea just one that was [05:07] my that was my graphics and so exactly [05:10] >> okay let's turn to the bashfkin Twitter [05:12] persona okay we'll call it Twitter even [05:14] though it's X you have this Twitter [05:15] persona large following [05:17] >> we're grandfathered in we could call it [05:18] Yes. Yes. [05:19] >> How did how did this start before we [05:21] even get I read this over Shabas, which [05:22] we'll get to. You discussed the intro of [05:23] the book. How did this whole Twitter [05:25] persona and the whole Twitter account [05:26] start? [05:27] >> For those that remember in the heyday, [05:29] by the way, of Jewish Twitter, I don't [05:30] know. Today, it's kind of teetering. [05:31] It's not the same as it was when we [05:33] first met all those years ago through [05:35] Twitter. [05:35] >> Yeah, it it's look, social media was [05:39] just starting. I joined in 2011. That's [05:42] more than 10 years. It's 15 years ago, [05:44] which is really, really crazy. And when [05:47] I came on there, it was really a place, [05:50] I called it the place where you could [05:52] pass notes in the back of the classroom. [05:53] You know, like if you're in class and [05:55] you don't just want to focus on the [05:57] front of the room, just cover in the [05:58] back and you could pass notes. What I [06:00] loved about Twitter was that it was Jews [06:03] from different backgrounds who were all [06:05] in one space. You don't have to be [06:06] invited to some secret WhatsApp group, [06:09] but it was just a place where Jews [06:11] couldn't and they were sharing their [06:12] ideas. And I was very attracted to the [06:15] fact that here we have legitimate there [06:17] were there were I remember and there [06:20] still who are like undercover there's [06:22] like you know my father's a huge r and [06:25] I'm here just like undercover just keep [06:27] it quiet just to see what's going on out [06:28] there. It was a fantastic place to meet [06:31] and interact with Jews who are not like [06:34] you and that's always what I love to do [06:37] that's always what I love to connect [06:38] with and that's how we first connected. [06:40] So, Twitter originally, I think if I [06:43] made a contribution to Twitter, it was [06:45] the it was the style of taking a a [06:50] non-Jewish photo, not not cuz it's it [06:53] just a regular photo from the news and [06:55] giving it a Jewish caption. That was [06:57] like my stickick and then I built that. [06:59] Like it was mostly jokes and I would [07:01] take captions. You would see, I don't [07:03] know, Bill Bellichic, a big coach coming [07:06] off a bus with all the bags and I said, [07:08] you know, it's the share showing up for [07:10] the roof. So these like cutesy little [07:12] >> He would wear his fedora. [07:14] >> Exactly. He wore the You remember the [07:15] picture? [07:15] >> That's right. Of course. [07:16] >> So that that that early stuff. There was [07:18] like an early picture of of David [07:20] Letterman, who's a late night host with [07:22] Jimmy Kimmel. So the yeshiva sharashiva [07:25] with his modern orthodox pulpit rabbi [07:28] son. just like a a sweet way of bringing [07:32] Jewish culture and Jewish ideas to the [07:34] masses. That's how I that's how I first [07:36] first started on Twitter. What evolved [07:39] after that is that I read this over [07:41] Shabas. That was also a shtick that came [07:44] from a from a rogue interview on a [07:47] different podcast on the meaningful [07:49] people podcast. I was I was invited [07:50] there early and they were like very nutr [07:53] we're we're in the podcast that it's [07:55] normal to read books but in the regular [07:57] world on regular podcast you no one's [08:00] reading books anymore [08:00] >> the geeks [08:03] >> exactly so they looked at me I remember [08:05] they were together still and they looked [08:07] at me like how many books do you read [08:09] like it was like crazy you more than one [08:11] book a year and you don't have a [08:12] homework assignment so I threw it up [08:14] 10,000 books I do the math and I have a [08:17] nephew who's taco really good at math He [08:19] says that that's impossible. Just like [08:21] do do the math. You're not reading a [08:22] book a day for five years. So I scaled [08:24] back the number. But it gave me this [08:27] idea of like I'm I am reading a lot and [08:29] I'm both of us we're reading good stuff [08:32] that people like [08:34] everyone's going to enjoy. You don't [08:35] have to be a nerdy academic to enjoy [08:37] this. [08:38] >> I still get you we'll get to this but [08:39] why not we can digress here. When I when [08:41] people see like academic books and they [08:43] and the academics really are still like [08:45] and the press is like people are [08:46] interested in this beyond the realm of [08:48] academia like yes but you have to reach [08:50] them now some books are very tedious [08:52] correct [08:52] >> but a lot of academic books have a wide [08:54] appeal [08:54] >> if you have the right packaging I [08:56] >> I've seen this on farm chatter [08:57] interviewing professors academics about [08:58] their books and people are like I see [09:00] the sales like I see for here [09:02] >> I think there is a legitimate argument [09:04] that you and I particularly you might be [09:06] the most hated people in America because [09:09] we push push sales and nobody everyone [09:13] anybody who buys books is married to [09:16] somebody who said oddcon buying books [09:18] >> so for those that are familiar with my [09:19] chat so I used to be on Twitter we I [09:21] could talk some of my Twitter experience [09:22] but now there's still but it's a lot on [09:24] this farm charter WhatsApp community [09:25] where there's a lot of people [09:27] >> and there are so many people either hear [09:29] from a spouse or hear from them [09:30] themselves like you have cost me so much [09:32] money with new books book deals Amazon [09:34] has these deals just with the algorithm [09:36] and I you know I put oh it's a deal and [09:37] people are just buying books you've of [09:40] fortune h half of this book I would say [09:42] we have a chapter in Vi which is about [09:45] the lost tribes I give you a shout out [09:47] because I think no [09:49] >> shouting you out is so important because [09:52] you really transformed the lemud for a [09:55] lot of people you you expanded the [09:57] cannon where like yeah you can't [10:00] nowadays if you're talking about lost [10:02] tribes and the other was your series on [10:03] chop tight TV which was which was [10:05] genuinely revolutionary before that if [10:08] you're quoting something from shop tit [10:09] to you on a deep cut. You're quoting [10:11] some apocrypha about the Taz. I mean, [10:13] that was like as far as it went. And you [10:15] literally took like the deepest deepest [10:18] dive. I went through the whole series [10:19] with you. It was unbelievable. And and [10:22] so many chapters of this are really just [10:25] distillations of SAM chatter [10:27] recommendations. If you stay with it, I [10:29] package it a little differently, a [10:30] little sweeter. I try to distill really [10:32] get it down to it. But um so much of [10:35] what we do. So what I started to answer [10:38] your question, a big feature on X became [10:41] posting what I read on Chabas. And that [10:44] really was to take advantage of the fact [10:46] that we have this community of people [10:48] who are learning Torah at the very [10:51] highest level. But there are also a lot [10:52] of Jews on Twitter who can't read [10:54] Hebrew. And I want to market shabas, the [10:57] beauty of Shabas, how accessible Shabas [10:59] is. And I want to market reading. So I [11:02] started posting every Mozy. It used to [11:04] be all on my account and I would retweet [11:06] and repost anybody who shared what they [11:09] read on Chabas and eventually it was [11:11] like exhausting and like like I would [11:13] dread Mozy Chabas have to sit there. [11:15] >> So I just created a separate account [11:17] have somebody else run it and what it is [11:20] is just Mozy Shabas encouraging people [11:22] share what you read over Shabas and that [11:24] became the that's the name of the [11:26] account that became the title of the [11:28] book I share what you read and the [11:29] little caption I read this over Shabas. [11:32] Then of course all of the the lambda all [11:35] the lime does I read this over shab does [11:37] it mean you read the whole book you read [11:38] some of the book did you read some of it [11:40] for Monday for Tuesday means that I read [11:43] some of it over shabas the irony is you [11:46] mentioned my shop fee series like I read [11:47] this over shabas is organic when I I [11:49] started farm cheddar the whole thing we [11:51] talked about we talked about the [11:52] periscope and the wrote on the first the [11:54] point what I wanted to start a podcast [11:55] and I've said this on different episodes [11:56] of farm chatter I wanted to start a [11:58] podcast 2019 I think it was before covid [12:01] before I took to Lstead before I was [12:02] going to law school. I'm going to start [12:03] a podcast. I'm going to talk about [12:04] Sparum, new Sparum, interesting Sparum [12:06] and so on. I didn't know the exact [12:08] format myself and so on. I recorded one [12:11] part of an episode. It's buried. I never [12:13] released it. I have part of it way [12:15] before. I can't remember if I [12:16] >> No, no one's heard it. Just me. It's on [12:18] my computer. I think I have [12:20] >> We used to talk like even in the in the [12:22] editing room we would talk. [12:23] >> I have this recording somewhere. But [12:26] >> but that organic nuda that you just [12:28] said, that's our that's why we have Sam. [12:30] >> So So I'll tell you. So I eventually it [12:32] was co hit. We were all at home and I [12:34] was like you know what I told my wife [12:35] I'm going to go downstairs and I was in [12:36] my basement and not in the attic like [12:37] I'm now in my old house and I said I'm [12:38] going to go downstairs. I'm going to [12:39] just record. I'm going to go live. At [12:40] that point I don't know how to say my [12:42] name. I definitely hadn't shown my face. [12:43] I'm like I'm just going to do it. [12:44] >> Yeah. I don't think you you shared your [12:45] name. [12:46] >> Nothing. It was like privately DM. I [12:48] went live. I did that first few episodes [12:51] I was talking about the new magtoyak [12:55] that was [12:57] Ellie Steinberg in the comments. Rishb [13:01] I still I still associate with the rishb [13:03] that's it. So I after the first few um [13:06] the first few episodes I think I [13:07] interviewed was Mrai. Yeah. It was you. [13:10] Yeah. And there was a couple other ones [13:12] JJ Shatter. There was some a few that I [13:14] did and I was and eventually and it was [13:16] live at that point. Then at some point [13:18] someone was like why don't you put them [13:19] on a podcast? Why don't you do a [13:20] podcast? So I did and then I started [13:21] doing a podcast and it took off. When it [13:23] came to shop series until that point I [13:24] hadn't done I never did a series. [13:26] >> Yeah. [13:26] >> And I was in the kitchen my old house [13:29] and I was talking to professor Matt [13:30] Goldish. Someone said you have to talk [13:31] to Matt talk to Matt and Matt is a [13:33] wonderful person great scholar wonderful [13:35] person [13:36] >> and we were having conversation like you [13:38] know what chef is not going to be one [13:39] episode at that point I I hadn't read [13:41] Scholam's book I wasn't super familiar [13:42] and I was like you know what let me read [13:44] Scholam's book let's figure this out and [13:45] it went from one episode to two to three [13:47] and then I got different people on [13:48] different topics and it grew and it grew [13:50] and it grew and it grew and you know the [13:52] the later on the series that I did after [13:53] that the Jews of Spain and the Templar [13:57] those were all planned series correct [13:59] this was totally organic and extra dish [14:01] when it's [14:02] >> this is the one that I still get the [14:03] most comments on. [14:04] >> Oh, for sure. Well, for for me like a I [14:08] was also afraid of Schol's book like [14:09] we're both readers pages. It's a [14:11] thousand pages, but you taught me how to [14:13] read the book that you gave me the road [14:16] map which I like I've always wanted to [14:19] to team up on this of like how to become [14:21] an expert in this topic because it's [14:23] very doable. There's so much good books. [14:25] The books are so and you told me skip [14:28] the first chapter. [14:28] >> It comes from Matt Goldish. He told me, [14:30] he taught me Matt said skip, do not read [14:33] the beginning. That's all the heavy [14:34] colors of skip it to page 75 or page [14:36] 100. [14:36] >> And I did I I read the intro, which is [14:38] phenomenal. And then I skipped the first [14:41] and I read you had another very nice [14:43] includ. [14:47] Yeah, it's a kisser of the whole thing. [14:49] And just take you through the history, [14:51] the dates, you'll know what's what. [14:52] >> That's right. And I I feel like my I [14:56] reached a second level of not only [14:59] appreciation of history but how to share [15:01] Jewish history from from sticking with [15:03] you in Swarm Chatter. No, I think you're [15:05] revolutionary genuinely. [15:06] >> Thank you. I I've always tried and swarm [15:08] is still trying. You know, people say [15:09] when you talk about podcast about any [15:11] medium I think in general, what's the [15:12] agenda? Right. Yeah. So we could look at [15:14] what's 1840s agenda. What's far [15:15] shredded? Swarm cheddar has one agenda. [15:17] I want to teach people history and teach [15:19] them the the simple truth, not not [15:21] censored, not correct [15:23] >> with an not with an agenda. The agenda [15:24] is to be just teach people history. I [15:27] think there's no reason why people can't [15:28] learn history as is, as it was. [15:31] >> I always reach out to you. My favorite [15:33] episodes is when you jump in and explain [15:35] to the crowd, this is not revolutionary. [15:37] This is [15:40] you you have your editing label, which [15:41] you do sometimes, which is great. No, [15:43] your revolution is that it's not a [15:45] revolution. It just like it it so [15:48] organically filled the space and people [15:50] feel so safe and comfortable. Listen, [15:52] you never you never get I'm sure [15:53] everyone you get you get calls but it's [15:56] so incredible and both of us kind of [15:58] came from similar kind of you we learned [16:01] in fairly similar yeshivas. We probably [16:04] knew of a bigger world. Neither neither [16:06] of us were formally academia. [16:09] >> No, I I certainly I was more right-wing [16:11] than you. I learned that from Lakewood [16:12] and I went to YPT which wasn't so much [16:14] but then I went to MIFTA. Yeah. [16:16] >> Then I went to Philly and I was in [16:18] Shakar [16:19] for a few months. Then I was in BMG and [16:21] there and then there was the regular [16:24] rightwing [16:25] >> on Purum one year when I was doing top [16:27] fives for Mishbaka magazine. Okay. [16:29] >> So I and every year on Purim I would put [16:32] on social media joke top five spicier [16:35] top five. So one of my top fives was top [16:38] five gateways into academic stuff. [16:42] >> Yes. [16:43] >> So I I don't know if you remember what [16:44] my top five was. Okay, go through ahead. [16:46] Here's my tie and I want to know if you [16:48] number one was Rebbitson David uh um [16:52] Alam she passed away um her PhD on the [16:55] >> Mar I only read a little bit of that. [16:57] >> Okay, so that was for sure. Number two [16:59] is JJ Shakar's article in Tormada facing [17:02] the truths of history where he's [17:04] grappling with Okay, that's that's [17:06] number three. N that's number two. [17:09] Number three, I think is Salvich's [17:12] rupture and reconstruction, which is [17:14] about how history developed. Big one. [17:17] That was number three. Number four, I'm [17:20] trying to remember. What was number [17:23] four? Help me out. Like the classic four [17:27] and five, the cl like what was your [17:29] >> So, so for me, I think I mentioned I [17:30] think was Mark Shapiro's Changing the [17:32] Immutable. Mark Shapiro. Maybe that's [17:33] the one. [17:34] >> No, number four was just Mark Shapiro. [17:36] >> Yeah, Mark I think it's just Mark [17:37] Shapiro. Whether it's his farm blog or [17:39] of [17:40] whatever Mark Shapiro and and I think I [17:42] know Mark I've had Mark on the podcast a [17:44] bunch of times and you know people Mark [17:46] people people either like Mark they [17:47] don't like him but that's not the point [17:48] here the point is Mark has just inspired [17:51] so many whichever direction you want to [17:53] turn from what he shows in his history [17:55] so the immutable was a big one for me [17:56] especially being a textbased person and [17:58] seeing the the censorship going on [18:01] >> reasons or not just seeing that going on [18:03] that was one for me it was Aram Gman's [18:05] book on Rashi just just a classic [18:07] seminal work on Rashi and showing how [18:09] you can have a an intellectual biography [18:11] of a god like Rashi but really a [18:13] respectful wonderful book I recommend [18:15] everyone to read it also Litman they're [18:17] both Litman then it was Shimanstein it's [18:20] on the main line just his blog I love [18:22] him with that blog [18:22] >> but I love Shimstein Shimon's great yes [18:25] the blog and Shadal that he he's [18:27] responsibly got me into Shadal he was my [18:29] gateway drug to Shadal [18:30] >> you know I was he was we know each other [18:31] from day camp so I was a CIT when he was [18:34] a counselor and then we reconnected [18:37] >> he really Zah Lov was of the early like [18:42] nonprofessional academics who brought it [18:45] to the [18:45] >> he's tremendously talented so it was his [18:48] and then Sar blog which it goes back to [18:50] to Mark Shapiro I think those were like [18:51] the main ones we forgetting something [18:52] else those like and then slowly I got [18:54] into you know academia and so on and my [18:56] my real way into the not into academia [18:59] but early on I've said this a bunch of [19:00] times when I was in Philly say really [19:02] when I was in Philly I would take out [19:03] especially Mahon Shalam and Mosar cook [19:06] critical editions of a rajbar or [19:07] whatever the safer was and read the [19:09] intro, read the little bio, read the [19:11] intro and then read the the manuscript, [19:13] the real geeky stuff like which [19:15] manuscript, which edition they were [19:16] using. I still remember so I would learn [19:18] Kamitki when I was in fourth year base [19:19] magic we learned once a week Thursday [19:20] morning [19:21] >> and before Rashana I said let's learn [19:23] the Rambana is the famous dash of [19:25] Rashana. I said what's I got him the [19:27] Masar cook edition turned to the the [19:29] intro of Raishavel and he said we have [19:32] to read the intro [19:33] >> really [19:33] >> he read the intro he was sitting there [19:35] skimming it like I guess we read the [19:37] intro that was like you know to show me [19:38] that a god read the intro we have to [19:40] read like what's going on what the story [19:41] is and then we went and we read you know [19:43] we don't get through the whole thing but [19:44] you know because he would get calls and [19:45] interrupted it was that was a real [19:46] experience but yeah so that was that was [19:48] one thing but I was always interested [19:50] like that was my gateway and then slowly [19:51] eventually got into academia and [19:53] academic books and so on. Wow. Wow. But [19:56] but now there's so much access to so [19:58] much and the the depth of of education [20:02] in our community is and I'm talking both [20:05] our it's [20:06] >> they're different. [20:07] >> They're not they're not crazy different. [20:09] I think we could talk about this, but I [20:12] I think that part of what you and I [20:16] represent in some ways is actually how [20:19] the differences have gotten much less [20:22] ideological and are much more I think [20:24] cultural, but you you could fight me on [20:26] that a different time. [20:26] >> It could be. It could be. But but I [20:28] think also there's we have many more [20:30] options today because we have podcasts. [20:32] Correct. We have 1840, we have Storm [20:33] Treaty, Who Greish H3 Sound, Rabbi Dr. [20:35] David Katz's podcast. I love him too. We [20:37] have um there's still other ones. I know [20:40] people listen to um Aubry Hirs. Aubry [20:43] Hershir. [20:45] What's the name? Arie Whittenstein I [20:46] think his podcast. Um there's those. I [20:48] know there's a couple other ones. I mean [20:49] there's there's definitely others that [20:50] I'm forgetting. People listen to those. [20:52] I should mention even just the sheer [20:53] surely Bourstein's shear with his [20:55] patented raid bites. So there's so much [20:56] so much history that comes into that [20:58] into the Tyra there. But so I think [21:00] there's been in general like a [21:02] revolution in the sense you said it was [21:03] revolution but not a revolution. [21:04] Correct. It's not because it's simple [21:06] things that are just available and that [21:07] are there. You know, when you do a [21:09] podcast like I did with Musha on my [21:11] podcast on the diary in his [21:13] autobiography and you're reading stories [21:15] that tells about himself. This is this [21:17] was here. This was printed [21:19] >> but it wasn't necessarily available [21:21] wasn't talked about those stories. We we [21:24] had just kind of sanitized history, [21:26] sanitized biographies if you [21:28] >> But did you ever have a point, I'm [21:29] curious for you, where you felt [21:33] um not like unsafe, but like is it like [21:37] like you did you do you feel that your [21:40] immersion into this area of Jewish [21:44] history has affected you? You like [21:46] you're very like you're avoid Hashem [21:48] like the way you are Jewishly. [21:51] >> I think it helps. I don't think I don't [21:53] think in any way you know when you read [21:55] again go back to you read about and you [21:57] read about he was I don't know what the [21:59] word is down let's just say and you know [22:01] when different things happened to him on [22:02] his trip [22:03] >> and you read about him talking about his [22:05] in Amsterdam and it was snowy and he [22:07] runs across the street and the next [22:08] thing he knows he's in and he can't see [22:09] and he cries out clearly had a [22:11] concussion you're reading about when [22:12] he's in England famous story he's going [22:14] to the bathroom and he falls in and he [22:16] gets stuck and that's almost the end of [22:17] him he's screaming and an arous woman [22:19] saves him [22:20] >> I think you you you connect with a [22:22] Yeah. [22:22] >> Rather than just like it's like this of [22:24] course comparable to the but you you [22:28] kind of [22:29] >> becomes a little bit more human and I [22:31] think it brings that human element and [22:32] it's like wait and now you go to the [22:34] with wow this is the these are his now [22:36] I'm going to go and read you know and I [22:38] I've said this in the past also my first [22:39] exposure I mentioned because my first my [22:41] real gateway drug to Jewish history was [22:44] the I wrote this many years ago yes and [22:47] and it's really best to approach me to [22:48] write something was a small column and [22:51] it was about that was just I read it in [22:53] first major. [22:53] >> It's like the bibliography of [22:55] >> bibliography with some stories. It's [22:57] like it it just it gives you a lot and [23:00] he really [23:01] >> brings you into Jewish history. So I I [23:03] think Jewish history knowing you have to [23:05] know you know you need to know what [23:08] happens. I think in my series Professor [23:10] Matt said it's like you have to know [23:12] what happened to to understand the [23:14] president. Like you have to know what [23:15] happened. There's nothing that gets me [23:16] more upset probably nothing than these [23:18] grand statements. This has never [23:20] happened before. Greatest X in history. [23:23] >> The worst ever which never been [23:24] >> the worst ever. This the most anti-im. [23:26] Where are you getting these statements [23:27] from? Do you understand what happened in [23:29] Jewish history? [23:30] >> Yeah. [23:30] >> I remember I I mean we can say this [23:32] example I think when post October 7th [23:34] which is a terrible thing. You heard [23:35] people saying like this is the worst [23:36] whatever whatever. I mean we just had [23:38] the Holocaust. Yeah. [23:39] >> Like I'm not and and I should say I'm [23:42] not mitigating that. What I'm saying is [23:44] that people are just forgetting takat [23:46] when you had a third of the jewelry [23:48] killed out in Ukraine murdered. You're [23:50] forgetting the crusades, you know, when [23:51] it happened in in the rhinland. You're [23:53] forgetting what happened to the Jews in [23:54] in at land of Israel for all the [23:57] centuries. Just like I'm just picking [23:58] one example of like recently and it was [24:00] like this bombastic statements and where [24:02] are these statements coming from? You [24:03] know where they're coming from? Not [24:04] understanding Jewish history whatsoever. [24:06] Just no understanding. [24:08] >> Yeah. No, I I find that deeply deeply [24:11] frustrating. And I think the number one [24:13] question that I always think about like [24:16] when I'm listening to you and anytime [24:17] I'm involved in Jewish history is how [24:19] did we get here? How did we get here? [24:22] You look around and the world has like a [24:24] the from world, the Jewish larger Jewish [24:26] world, the entire world, like [24:29] especially in the moment that we're in [24:31] now, it feels like this is how it has [24:33] always been. And when you like start to [24:35] dig a little bit, [24:37] some things are 20 years old, some [24:39] things are 50 years old, some things are [24:41] 500 years old, you start to see the the [24:43] the stratification. To me, it makes me [24:46] fall in love over and over again with [24:48] Yiddish Kite and the Jewish people. [24:49] Genuinely genuinely I I feel like I get [24:53] very very move like I'm a more like I [24:56] think I'm a little more emotion [24:58] into the cases more than I am. I'm not. [25:00] But but how come one question I want to [25:02] know how come like one thing with my [25:04] book that I think is very different than [25:06] what you focus on the sperm chatter you [25:08] do not you really try to avoid anything [25:11] from the last hundred years. [25:12] >> So yeah I do it's rare that I do it. I [25:15] think I did one kind of two related [25:19] episodes recently and I think those are [25:21] like I think those were episodes two and [25:23] three. I think I only had done one [25:24] before and the one before was like the [25:26] pope in the world. It's just it's not [25:28] something that interests me. I don't [25:30] know why. It's just so the podcast I do [25:32] try to balance it because it's it's for [25:34] me but it's not only me. It's for [25:36] others. I want people to enjoy it. So, [25:37] but I am still doing my interest and I [25:39] there are so many people that tell me [25:40] that their interest in Italian jewelry [25:42] is my fault because I'm fascinated by [25:44] Italian Jews and I push that a lot on [25:45] the podcast. [25:46] >> But what's the common denominator of [25:48] what interests you? Like what it's a [25:50] it's a time period. [25:52] >> No, it's just a personal interest. I [25:53] don't know. I don't know what makes me [25:55] tick. What makes anyone tick? It's just [25:56] what I'm interested in. So modern [25:57] history is not my thing. [25:59] >> Uhhuh. [26:00] >> Davi Safir Yehuda Gber them. That's [26:03] their thing. They're the experts in [26:04] that. They're very interested in that. [26:06] Yosel Houseman, a lot of friends. It's [26:07] just it's not so much. [26:09] >> He's from the originals. [26:10] >> Yeah. Of course. It's not so much my [26:12] thing. So when I'm interested in it, [26:13] when I get into it, fine. But like I'm [26:15] it's just I don't know. I don't have the [26:16] interest. Of course, I was in yeshiva. I [26:18] knew all the yeshiva shahak and the [26:20] different Russian yeshivas of this [26:21] yeshiva and of that yeshiva. History was [26:23] just never my thing. [26:24] >> Yeah. So just that not into and I just [26:26] was not really into that. Like I've [26:28] tried I'm doing now I've done some [26:29] episodes on early American rabbis in the [26:31] 19th century. I've become more [26:33] interested in 19th century not 20th [26:35] century. There's no interest. [26:36] >> I could I think a lot of it also has to [26:38] do with like you're you're I don't you [26:41] could decide how you want to answer it. [26:44] I don't get the I don't get the sense [26:46] that you wish you could immerse yourself [26:49] in Cabala and mysticism. Like does that [26:52] work like do you that limood a starting [26:54] from it doesn't really [26:57] >> it's not your so a lot of you kind of [27:00] gravitate to the place in history where [27:02] >> but but but I'm working on a miniseries [27:05] actually on kiss and and onas that [27:08] happened a long time ago and I've done [27:09] episodes on that I had a wonderful [27:11] >> series was phenomenal series was [27:13] phenomenal right a wonderful three-part [27:14] series you probably with the masaro with [27:17] crav I got tremendous feedback on that [27:18] tremend everyone's like do more on this [27:20] time period that's a long time ago [27:21] that's 16th century and that that period [27:23] does interest me was a fascinating book [27:26] yeah actually just got I got a swarm [27:28] shipment from which I didn't mention him [27:31] and one of the one of the swarm I got [27:32] say for hame that's titak also like [27:35] magnes came and told him things it was [27:38] printed from manuscript recently another [27:40] fascinating text so yes even though I'm [27:41] not immersing myself in that le I'm [27:43] still interested in that I I find myself [27:46] interested in in more interesting things [27:47] my interest in Italian jewelry I think [27:50] Italian jewelry [27:51] holds a fascinating place for me because [27:53] it's so different. I think we're so [27:55] today this comes from the sanitization [27:56] of Jewish history when we're told Jewish [27:58] history is rashiva or someone that looks [28:00] like a rasha long beard look like a reba [28:02] they ran the show they were in charge of [28:04] it you know this is what they did they [28:06] learned kumar all day they learn lis [28:08] >> and so on you look at Italian jury you [28:10] go look at Italian jury from all the [28:12] centuries Italians were interested in [28:14] >> they spoke Italian they a lot of them [28:16] knew poetry everything they were doctors [28:20] they were mubalim they look at there's [28:22] so many different things that they were [28:23] doing. They were influenced. They read [28:24] Dante and the Inferno. You see, you see [28:26] in Divine Comedy, you see the different [28:28] things that they're interested in. And [28:29] you look, you know, Zarya de Rossi and [28:31] you look at what they were upset about [28:32] was only a fraction of the safer, not a [28:35] lot of the other parts. They knew Pho. [28:37] Many of them were quoting Phil, they [28:38] called me, but they knew Pho who was [28:40] this Greek Jew at the right before the [28:42] so you're talking about [28:44] >> there's so the interests there are so [28:46] wide ranging. You look at people always [28:48] shocked to hear Italian Jews, no Yamos. [28:51] It never got san It never got sanitized. [28:53] >> No yarmakas, long hair, just like a [28:56] priest. Many of them like I I showed [28:58] people a picture. I had someone I I sent [29:00] someone recently a picture and I wanted [29:01] to make a poster for the suk. I said I [29:02] want take these real these are real [29:04] portraits. I want to have these pictures [29:05] in my suka. [29:06] >> Yeah. [29:06] >> And I said let's create this portrait. [29:09] >> No doubt everyone was very mischievous [29:10] >> and I said let's create this portrait. [29:12] So in the front of he has long hair. He [29:16] has no yamaka. the second edition when [29:18] they reprinted it, they put on a yamama [29:20] change a little bit and also it says [29:25] but there's an you know apostrophe above [29:27] it kind of a quotation marks rather and [29:29] it says he's 46 but in the second [29:31] edition there's a little apology in the [29:32] back it says we apologize he doesn't [29:34] look 100 because they didn't understand [29:36] in the third edition when they reprinted [29:38] it they removed that apology because [29:42] they realized that they had no idea what [29:43] they were talking about okay so you [29:46] Rashi Marini one of the connection to [29:49] there's a [29:51] connection to so there's a there's a [29:54] picture of him clean shaven [29:58] close friends he was on Napoleon [30:00] Sanhedrin he actually didn't go one of [30:02] the biggest pam extensively [30:05] he's clean shaven he's actually his [30:06] secular name he went by sacred that's [30:08] that this was his name yes this was his [30:10] name is kind of [30:12] >> you got very good at pronunciation [30:14] >> my pron was terrible it still isn't It [30:16] got very good. It's grown over the [30:18] years. Not shy. Hopefully I'm [30:19] pronouncing [30:20] >> I'm afraid I'm afraid to pronounce [30:22] anything cuz I know [30:23] >> I'm a kid who grew up in Lakewood and I [30:24] grew up pronouncing the baseball. I I [30:26] when I talk about sports it was Jim Tho [30:28] and Brett Favre. I didn't know it was [30:30] Tommy and Brett say and I was kids like [30:32] what is wrong with you? You don't. And I [30:34] was like listen I think you've said this [30:35] also never be afraid to make a mistake. [30:37] I told people don't be afraid. I told my [30:38] kids you can you can pronounce the name [30:40] wrong. It means you're trying and also [30:41] means you're reading and you're getting [30:42] it from reading. Back to the book for [30:44] reading. [30:44] >> Exactly. Exactly. I pronounced the word [30:46] A ori instead of Arai until I was like [30:49] in my 20s. I think now it means you're [30:51] reading that. But that's you're I'm [30:53] afraid to pronounce the word. Who's [30:55] Elijah Ben? [30:57] Uh [31:00] what's his name? [31:01] >> Vita. [31:01] >> No. Elijah Ben Moag. [31:03] >> Benamos. Benamos. So he was a rabbi in [31:06] Lavar. No. [31:06] >> I know. Weird. [31:08] >> I know. But I'm afraid to [31:11] Well, you tried it. So So there's these [31:13] Italian rabbis. There's a couple of [31:15] Rabbi um David Netto who was from [31:17] Venice. Then he went to London. We know [31:20] the picture of him. He's got his little [31:21] goatee. He's got a wig. Okay. Long wig. [31:24] You have a Raf Mildola. He look He's got [31:26] He looks like George Washington. He's [31:27] got the curly wig. [31:28] >> I want to bring this back. And he's got [31:30] Mildola. He writes, which everybody [31:32] learns, is it's still under production. [31:34] We're trying to have someone trying to [31:35] do it. As of this recording, it might be [31:36] out. You can check if we find it. I'll [31:38] put a link. I I'm working on to try to [31:40] get it. And so when I sent these images [31:42] and I sent this to the to the guy to he [31:44] was going to tweak it up. I don't know [31:45] what he's doing, you know, with his AI [31:46] kind of, you know, creating it into a [31:48] nice poster. Sure. Not the old fashioned [31:49] was just like the pictures. He's like, [31:50] "No, I'm not doing that. I'm making this [31:51] look nice." [31:52] >> So he and these these are reputable [31:54] images. I'm not taking some of these [31:55] images, which we don't know where it's [31:57] from. So he's he he sends it back to me [32:00] first. Yeah, that's Well, that's the one [32:02] from London. Yeah. Correct. So he sends [32:03] it back to me. They all have like hats. [32:04] I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "I can't [32:07] have gel not have some a head covering." [32:09] And I said, "Well, well, they didn't [32:10] have they printed in their own s with a [32:12] head covering. What are you doing?" So, [32:13] I'm not faulting him. It was It's more [32:16] We're so taught that our history that [32:17] the guttle can't be clean shaven with [32:20] long hair and no yamoka and have like [32:22] that high collar. Like, it can't be. But [32:25] why not? Why can't it be? Because you [32:26] don't understand that. It can't be that [32:28] he read Latin Italian. You know, one of [32:31] the things Kravitz who is now doctor [32:33] also he has a PhD on this phenomenal [32:36] kid. I had him on the mash. It's [32:37] tremendous. [32:39] >> He's the faro. For those that that are [32:41] familiar with Nazi porno, the farfoes [32:45] first of all we have his doctorate from [32:46] university bolognia and the farno he [32:50] also taught he was a reb of non-Jews. [32:52] But the faro what's so interesting about [32:54] the faro is you learn if you learno [32:55] almost never quotes anybody. Yeah. So [32:57] Rabbi Kravitz found this thing he called [33:00] which is these notes that were on the [33:01] side of a rabb first edition where [33:06] was saying she and you write it down and [33:07] so he saw now he could see oh he it says [33:09] the rebi is coming from that and so on [33:11] and so forth. Okay, [33:14] >> sure. [33:14] >> However, if you look in the print faro, [33:16] there's almost nothing that's quoted. [33:18] However, if you look in Noyak, he quotes [33:21] Barosius. So, he's quoting a secular [33:23] source. Not only that, as Kravis has [33:26] shown, this Barros Broius was a ancient [33:28] writer. The source that he's quoting is [33:30] not there. There was a notorious forger [33:33] in the 16th century that that was [33:35] forging texts including this text that [33:37] the faro cites which shows the Sarno was [33:39] reading contemporary text coming off the [33:41] press in [33:43] >> Latin or Italian. So this knew Latin. [33:45] Desarno wrote a book called Armen. [33:47] >> This was a book on really against [33:49] philosophy. [33:50] >> He dedic he wrote in Hebrew. He also [33:51] wrote it himself in Latin ded dedicated [33:54] it to Katherine Demedichi the queen of [33:56] France who he knew or was a patron or [33:58] whatever it was. So when you're like [34:00] wait this is this is the right dish. [34:02] Yeah he was writing in Latin sending it [34:04] to the queen. So we have no [34:06] understanding of what Italian Jews were. [34:08] So this is you can tell by my [34:09] enthusiasm. No I love it. I [34:11] >> I'm so fascinated by Italian Jews that [34:13] this kind of jewelry doesn't really [34:14] exist. I have a friend that's a big [34:16] listener to the podcast. Aida lives in [34:17] liquid. His family is Italian. Benab of [34:20] Israel Diana. They he dinski he's does [34:23] but there's not really a lot of Italian. [34:25] >> I think form of chatter is probably the [34:26] closest thing to Italian jewelry that we [34:28] have now. Not because there was a lot of [34:30] Ashkanaz like the Lut family were [34:33] Ashkanazm originally. They became [34:34] Italian whether or not Ashkanazi [34:38] Luts. So again just we're like off track [34:40] but like that's what interests me. So [34:42] I'm always interested in like knowing [34:44] different parts of history and it wasn't [34:45] just so when it comes to modern history [34:47] I don't know why I think recently I've [34:50] got more interest. It's still not in the [34:51] 20th century. No you're not there. [34:52] >> But I think your interest let's let's [34:53] turn to the book a little bit. I read I [34:55] read this over Chavez and these were [34:57] things you wrote every week, published [34:59] them on your substack and there's a lot [35:00] more of the modern history because [35:02] you're someone that's interested in [35:03] modern history and also how it impacts [35:04] us today. [35:05] >> Correct. Correct. I'm really trying to [35:07] figure out the key stories that are [35:11] hashing through some of the biggest [35:13] controversies in not in Jewish history, [35:16] but like where does the Torah want us to [35:19] go with this? and using contemporary [35:22] Jewish history to illuminate the way [35:24] that we learn kumsh. I think a lot of [35:27] times a lot of works uh we we're like in [35:30] this renaissance where we have a lot of [35:32] like in the para where you quote a [35:35] karashi and then it's like okay let's [35:36] talk about like saying shim during kesh [35:39] lavana like totally like a different [35:41] thing [35:42] >> yeah and then there's a lot of lus in [35:44] the paralashar [35:45] like really like revolutionize that [35:47] space to a certain degree but it's [35:49] coming from like the earlier works um [35:52] and I wanted something different that [35:54] would open up the para to the masses [35:56] with a new a new angle. And I saw there [35:59] really were not that many works that [36:01] were using the para. Really, I only [36:03] found one that was using the para as a [36:06] springboard for the study of Jewish [36:08] history. Let me each para let me take [36:11] some idea from the para open up with [36:13] questions like a real like exploration [36:16] of the parha. Let's hold the questions. [36:19] let's go in depth in some incident in [36:21] Jewish history and then we'll circle [36:22] back and through this perspective of [36:25] some battle in Jewish history. We will [36:27] come back and re and and readress those [36:29] questions that we started with and I [36:31] developed essays starting from boratious [36:32] to visa [36:34] um really creating a springboard of [36:37] being able to learn the ideas in the [36:39] para through the lens of Jewish history. [36:41] That's the basic idea. [36:42] >> It was week by week and it culminated in [36:44] this book. But then you stopped since, [36:45] right? You're not still are you still [36:46] writing those essays? [36:47] >> No. What I want to do now is I want to [36:49] do one on the Moad [36:51] >> because there's history. There's such [36:52] gushmach history especially from very [36:55] contemporary [36:56] >> every yont has something as like the [36:59] thing that they fought over the battles [37:01] and all that but to me it's the same [37:02] thing meaning it's take it's showing you [37:04] that the values in the para in the [37:06] moadam that we're grappling with it's [37:08] it's mamish still today we're being [37:09] mired this it's right here it's right [37:11] now and that's that that that's how I [37:13] how I structured this it's heavy be [37:16] careful but I think you know [37:18] >> physically heavy [37:19] >> it's physically like you lit it's a lot [37:21] to lift up because they use like that [37:22] fancy paper they [37:23] >> use nice paper they did a great job you [37:25] publish in mag and 1840 the conjunction [37:27] so they did a great job it's color it's [37:29] nice you have so for those that didn't [37:31] see it you also have you started like [37:33] you said with some questions you go [37:34] through the history and then you have a [37:35] suggested reading list at the end as [37:36] well so if you want to dive because it's [37:39] something like a podcast you know people [37:40] when I did a series they'd be like well [37:42] you didn't discuss XYZ right and I'm [37:44] like this is a podcast this is not a [37:46] book this not this is not a this is not [37:47] a university lecture series but go [37:49] further research [37:49] >> but one thing that I that I give credit [37:51] to you and really you alone because a [37:54] lot of the others do not do this and I [37:55] love everyone you know that we we love [37:57] we get along with everybody but you show [37:59] your work much more than everybody else [38:01] meaning you tell this is the book that I [38:03] am getting this from that I'm getting [38:05] this information it's not I don't have a [38:07] secret cabala I'm not like I'm not going [38:09] to the Oxford library this is available [38:13] to the public so to me it was very [38:15] important I want to show you could find [38:17] all this stuff too all the vignettes and [38:19] the you know When I learned in in I I [38:23] learned in Shayashv in the summer times [38:25] and I remember Shayashv it was like a [38:27] very different clientele than Narius [38:29] especially in the summertimes it was [38:30] like a more like it was like a [38:32] community-based medish especially in the [38:35] in the summer you weren't get everybody [38:37] was away and I remember I would listen [38:39] to the way people would talk about the [38:41] rashiva who's a incredible bucky Joerger [38:45] there's a term that people would use and [38:47] it's a colloquial term that people [38:48] always use they'd be like it's not shy [38:50] It's not shy. Oh my gosh, how much he [38:53] knows. It's unbelievable. And I would [38:55] often tell people not to knock down any [38:59] Russia Shiva, but actually to put them [39:01] up be like, you could also find a lot of [39:04] this stuff, a lot of what he's do. You [39:06] don't yet, if you did a little bit of [39:09] the work, you would actually appreciate [39:10] how much he knows, but you didn't do any [39:13] of the work. So, you just sit back like [39:14] a deer in the headlights. It's not shy. [39:16] It's not shy. And it bothers me because [39:18] it is Shiah. it. There's no secret [39:21] sauce, the secret formula. I want to [39:23] hand you the keys. You You find the [39:25] stories and the incidents and the [39:27] personalities that interest you and then [39:29] you go and read the book 100%. The [39:32] number one thing that I've learned from [39:33] academia and academic books because I'm [39:35] not an academic. I'm a lawyer. I'm not [39:37] an academic. Is that [39:39] read the sources make sure there are [39:42] sources books without sources [39:44] >> the bane of my existence. Those books [39:46] are not trustworthy at all. Correct. you [39:48] to it's just not trustworthy because [39:50] maybe there was tweaked change. So when [39:52] I have a book with a source I'm like [39:53] well how do I know the professor or so [39:54] and so sheish well the professor is like [39:56] a bad word. How do I tweak it? I'm like, [39:58] "Okay, show your [39:59] >> go to read read the source." Exactly. [40:01] And if he twisted it, great. You saw it [40:02] >> and you'll find mistakes like in [40:04] anything. [40:04] >> And and what you're saying also is a key [40:05] point is that [40:06] >> there it's so easy today. Pick up books. [40:09] Pick up primary sources. Read it. Go [40:12] read that primary source, right? Read [40:13] the read read. [40:15] >> You show this with your series. You show [40:17] this with your series. You say, "Look, [40:19] any topic, if you spend [40:22] five hours just listening on the topic, [40:25] you're going to be in the 99% now." [40:27] Yeah. [40:28] >> Now, now you at least know your way [40:30] around. And I think that's true of [40:32] everything. That's something I heard [40:33] from Riverl Gersonfeld. Riverl [40:34] Gersonfeld who runs uh Yeshiva for [40:37] Balchuva Mlmo and Mahon Yakov. He always [40:41] tells like there's newly minted Bali [40:43] Chuva. They have so there's this sense [40:44] of like impostor syndrome. How are we [40:46] ever going to make it in the community? [40:47] He always tells them pick one teeny tiny [40:50] little subtopic and spend one year just [40:54] just on that one topic. So when you [40:57] enter into the community, you'll feel I [40:59] also have something that I know, you [41:00] know, like and that's what I feel like [41:02] you're doing constantly. That's what I'm [41:04] trying to do of just giving the keys. [41:06] It's all there. It's all there for you [41:08] to learn. And if you people just I think [41:10] were more disciplined and strategic [41:14] about how they read, what they read, and [41:17] just take a little bit of it. to me I [41:20] have my own system but how you organize [41:23] the information in your head like what I [41:25] like reading the same top multiple books [41:28] on the same topic right next to each [41:30] other because the because there's going [41:32] to be overlap because now I'm not going [41:34] to forget the main events okay I'll [41:36] forget the details I'll remember it's in [41:38] one of these two books but to me I I [41:41] want to be very we have 52 Shabbas in a [41:44] year there's not that much time to read [41:46] I'm very strategic what do I want to [41:48] read what do I want to learn more about [41:49] Like how do you choose what books you [41:52] actually spend? You have to like want [41:54] it. But like even now it's like very [41:56] hard because they probably send you like [41:58] the you you get uh 10 books a week I'm [42:00] sure in the mail. [42:01] >> I get crazy amounts of stuff and I I [42:03] don't keep all them. I don't read all [42:05] them. But some of them are interesting. [42:07] >> I wanted to be clear to all of your [42:08] listeners that if you're not getting the [42:11] response that you want from Nahi when [42:13] you send him free books, you can also [42:14] send me free books. Try me cuz I'll put [42:17] it on I'll put it right on Twitter. I [42:19] have like that's you what what do you [42:21] have the small talks? Yeah. [42:22] >> So I look I posting it as I read this [42:24] over shop that's like even smaller talks [42:27] you know everybody gets a little more [42:29] >> but but I no but I post them all they [42:31] all go posted on the WhatsApp chat on [42:33] Twitter and the status they get posted [42:34] that this book is new and and so on. So [42:37] I do post about them. [42:38] >> So I think what I'm so either sometimes [42:40] there's a new book oh I see that book's [42:41] coming out I want to have a conversation [42:42] about it. Let me read it. I want to talk [42:44] about the podcast. Sometimes it's like I [42:45] want to learn about that. [42:46] >> And when do you read? Are you most your [42:47] readings on chabas or you get [42:48] >> most history is usually on chaveis [42:50] sometimes snatches during the week [42:51] usually on chabas um if there's time you [42:53] know my wife uh who doesn't usually [42:55] listen to the podcast I don't listen to [42:57] this but she you know I have to help out [42:58] the kids you know [42:59] >> it is a do pusher that we are both [43:01] married to women who do not listen to [43:03] our podcast [43:04] >> they do not they're like you could tell [43:05] because we because we have a shemas of [43:07] being still normal people if we were [43:09] married to people who were fans I think [43:11] we would pudet be mishuga unhealthy [43:13] >> the only episode my wife listened to I [43:15] think the entire the in its entirety was [43:18] when I had on my uncle Ellie Rosenfeld [43:20] who kind of is behind [43:25] Listen to the entire episode. I said, [43:26] "Greg, YOU LISTEN TO MY UNCLE, BUT NOT [43:27] TO ME." LIKE, "NO, Ellie's on. I'm [43:30] listening to I remember that episode." [43:32] >> No, not listening to me. So, yeah. [43:33] Correct. But my wife, my kids, my kids [43:35] actually listen to the podcast [43:36] sometimes. I'm not actually listening. [43:37] They're just like, "Ah, Dy's podcast." [43:39] They go on 246 and they're like, "Oh, [43:40] look, it's podcast." So, [43:42] >> so it it's really I I don't know. It's a [43:44] good question. Sometimes I'm just one in [43:45] the mood what I'm in the mood of. Like, [43:46] I'm in the mood of reading this. I'm [43:47] reading that. Also, sometimes I read [43:49] things that aren't history related. I [43:51] need to read a novel or something else. [43:52] And it's okay to read something that's [43:53] not your history related. I almost I I [43:55] have a hard time reading fiction now [43:57] because of this. [43:58] >> So I did there was there was there was a [44:01] kufa a few years ago where I was really [44:02] just like reading and I was almost like [44:03] pressured like I have to read for the [44:05] podcast and there still is some sort of [44:07] pressure that I need to get on the [44:08] podcast even though I'm like have like [44:09] 40 episodes recorded that aren't [44:11] released. It's crazy but it's best but [44:13] it's bad but then I'm still recording [44:14] new. I'm [44:15] >> why are you recording new? Are you [44:17] crazy? So, and some of them are really [44:19] good and they're like sitting in the [44:20] vault. But I sometimes I I started [44:23] reading novels again, fiction. I mainly [44:24] read um fantasy and science fiction. I [44:27] need kind of like a just like okay [44:29] break. I got to just shut this down. [44:31] >> The only thing I read outside the only [44:33] fiction I read is is science fiction. [44:36] >> So I like I need a good science fiction. [44:37] I need to just be done with this. I need [44:39] to read something else and zone out. [44:40] >> Can I can I can I recommend one science [44:42] fiction author who is unbelievable? Go [44:44] ahead. Ted Chiang. [44:47] >> Heard of him, I think, but I haven't [44:48] read. [44:48] >> Story of our lives. A lot of his story [44:51] have have religious themes to them. [44:55] Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You'll [44:57] you'll you'll you'll enjoy it. Ted [44:59] Chiing maybe. He doesn't do interviews. [45:01] I don't think you can get him on Farm [45:02] Chatter. [45:02] >> Farm Chatter. Yeah. [45:03] >> When you do a series on science fiction [45:05] does not do fan there's no series on [45:08] doing that. [45:08] >> And of CS Lewis. No. [45:10] >> Yeah. Wheel of Time took me years to get [45:12] through because in between the podcast [45:14] >> Yeah. Hey, well 14 books is crazy the [45:16] slogging on and anyone's read it can [45:19] commiserate with that. So yeah, I I [45:21] still read some of that, but like I So [45:23] how it pertains to Jewish history, I [45:24] think it's whatever interests me, [45:26] whatever I'm in the mood of reading at [45:27] that point. Sometimes it's something [45:28] new. [45:28] >> And what is this? Is an important [45:29] question. When you read on Chabas and [45:32] there's a passage or something that you [45:33] want to remember. [45:34] >> Do you have those book darts? [45:35] >> Yeah. Are you a book dart person? [45:37] >> Sometimes not really. So you I'll tell [45:39] you like this. If it's a book, [45:40] >> I should have brought you book darts. [45:42] Terrible. Book darts are great. [45:43] >> You can still send them. I if if I if I [45:46] have a book where it's okay, this book I [45:49] have to read for the podcast and I need [45:50] to know it really well. So then I I I've [45:53] perfected it's kind of bad this speed [45:55] reading we write. It's like I'm just [45:57] like [45:58] >> don't need that and then I'll tab it up [46:01] and my stickies. I like the color [46:02] stickies [46:03] >> and so I'll do that during the week and [46:05] I'll just run through something because [46:06] I know like I can conduct the interview [46:08] like on something also [46:10] >> at least a topic related to Italian [46:12] jewelry. I know a lot of that so like [46:14] okay whatever. Some topics I don't know. [46:16] So then it's harder. I have to really [46:17] read it and I'm kind of like it's also [46:19] because then I'm stuck to the book and [46:20] I'm like well I just know this now you [46:22] know my interview style I try not to be [46:24] overbeering on the guest and here we're [46:25] having more of a smoozy conversation. I [46:27] try like the guest talk. [46:28] >> Oh you let them go. You let them go. [46:31] >> Oh my gosh. You're just like hi you know [46:34] what to do and you I I assume half the [46:37] time you're in the kitchen. You're [46:38] making yourself breakfast lunch. You're [46:39] sitting there with a sandwich. They're [46:41] just going the sh but that was part of [46:43] the shiki [46:49] podcasting and I'm you're much better at [46:51] this than me. You pull back and say fill [46:54] up the canvas. This is your space. I've [46:56] learned that people when I'm [46:59] interviewing a guest me more I think [47:02] this is also not only the stylist [47:03] stylistic difference it's also this is [47:05] the nature of storm chatter. I'm [47:06] bringing on a guest on shop TV. I'm [47:08] bringing on a guest on Jews of Venice. [47:10] The guest is the expert. Not Naki wants [47:12] to. Naki has what to add. Naki will [47:15] conduct the conversation, but I'm not [47:17] the expert. They are. They're what the [47:19] listeners are here to hear. So, I always [47:21] remember that and I I imagine myself as [47:22] the listener. I listen started listening [47:24] to podcasts 2010 probably. Very long [47:27] time ago. [47:27] >> Oh, wow. Sports podcast. Pittsburgh [47:29] Steelers podcast. Okay. So, there was [47:31] not a lot of I'm a big Steelers fan. [47:33] There's not a lot of [47:34] >> You have Pittsburgh roots? [47:35] >> No, it just I'm a Steelers fan. I'm a [47:36] Pirates fan, so you can feel bad for me. [47:38] >> Yeah. So, so when I I would listen to I [47:41] would download podcasts and I would take [47:43] them with me to Shiva to Philly because [47:44] I would like listen to like back [47:45] episodes and the real anal like real [47:47] analysis not like enough sports talk [47:49] radio. I listen to fair enough sports [47:50] talk radio so I hopefully it panned out [47:52] and [47:53] >> sports talk radio shaped a generation of [47:55] yeshiva life course for sure [47:57] >> Mike the Mad Dog and so on and so forth [47:58] >> sports radio and and Rush Limbbo like [48:00] those were the two [48:01] >> I never listen to Rush [48:02] >> but those were the two that it shaped [48:04] discourse in [48:05] >> for sure. So, I would listen to the [48:06] podcast and I would always see like I [48:08] guess I intuited whether I should be [48:10] cutting off, whether I shouldn't be and [48:12] where to go. So, I think I learned that [48:14] in in the podcast early on, you know, [48:16] I'm a person, those that know me, is [48:18] with me, I know how to cut people off [48:19] and say what I want. But in the podcast [48:21] space, I'm like, "No, let them finish." [48:22] Also, when I was beginning of the [48:24] podcast, I was in law school and we had [48:25] these different classes, you know, they [48:26] teach you about like, you know, oral [48:28] argument programs, kind of like a fake. [48:30] So, so you learn also then where you [48:32] have to like open-ended questions and so [48:34] I used a lot of that also and they teach [48:36] you like in cross-examination or direct [48:38] right when you're let to use the direct [48:40] question when you use the the only [48:41] open-ended question you have to be like [48:42] so tell me about your book rather than [48:45] >> why did you pick the title I read this [48:47] over shabas and what about it right and [48:48] then you like a leading question so [48:50] therefore not only not a leading [48:51] question I would start with the [48:52] open-ended question and then let you [48:55] talk for 10 minutes and I would jot down [48:57] on the paper that's part of the reason [48:58] why maybe [48:59] >> are you taking notes during your [49:00] interviews. [49:00] >> So, my interviews are not on video. So, [49:02] I have a piece of paper in front of me [49:04] with a pen with a list of questions that [49:05] I want to ask and I don't I don't always [49:07] hit on all of them because sometimes [49:08] they'll answer them, sometimes I'll skip [49:10] them, but I'm always Okay, David just [49:12] said that quickly jot down a note. I [49:14] wanted them when he finishes talking I'm [49:15] going to by the way when he said that [49:17] this is what he meant over there. This [49:19] was the exactly what you do. You [49:21] editorial like you give them 10 minutes, [49:23] then you jump in for like a 45se [49:25] secondond editor and then you redirect. [49:27] He said, "Okay, the next thing I want [49:28] you to talk about is 30 years later, [49:31] whatever." [49:32] >> So, I think the biggest criticism of [49:34] that sometimes I get is well, like it [49:37] could be a little start stopish because [49:39] you're just like saying, "Let me" and [49:40] then let's redirect. You know, you're [49:41] not like picking up sometimes on what [49:43] they're saying. But on the other hand, [49:44] and I I it seems like the listeners like [49:46] this, I'm letting them talk and then [49:48] interject as opposed to and I found this [49:49] when I sometimes have do it. If if I [49:51] stop you and I'm like, "By the way, [49:53] that's whatever." then I might knock you [49:54] off your train of thought and or where [49:56] you were getting up to a good part and [49:57] the listener was like great he's gonna [49:58] oh come on he just stopped it now he [50:00] just messed it up what did he do so I'm [50:03] like I don't do that this is like my [50:05] style and this is what I'm doing it's [50:07] not like not as leading questions [50:08] sometimes they do ask pointed leading [50:10] questions but sometimes just open-ended [50:11] questions and then you you drill down [50:13] later so I think [50:14] >> it's kind of evolved over time but I I I [50:16] let the guests [50:17] >> kind of talk and and they're the expert [50:20] they're they're they're what people are [50:21] here to to listen to also So when then [50:23] you listen to enough episodes of Swarm [50:25] Chated, I think people hear me enough [50:26] and they hear my opinions enough once [50:28] they're listening to you. [50:29] >> They get to know you and and it's nice [50:31] cuz they get to know you through through [50:33] your interest or your questions. So [50:35] you're not you're not biographical on [50:37] the you're not like telling talking [50:38] about yourself at all, but you get a [50:40] very nice feel for your [50:42] >> your personality, the whole vibe. [50:44] >> Yeah. It's very rare that I do. That's [50:46] more reserved for those that are on my [50:48] personal status. Exactly. Which is not I [50:50] I get I get messages. Can I join your [50:53] status? No, it's not. You're not allowed [50:55] to join my status. You can stay on the [50:57] on the chat and on the podcast where we [50:58] stay very [50:59] >> apolitical, buttoned up, very [51:02] straightforward. Just we're talking [51:03] about this, we're talking about new [51:04] books, new [51:06] >> and so on history. I want to talk and [51:08] and I want you to these are your [51:10] questions, but I want to talk a little [51:13] bit about the aesthetics about what [51:15] you're seeing in Jewish publishing. This [51:18] book the first time somebody picks it up [51:20] will note it's very heavy cuz they used [51:22] a very fancy kind of paper and the [51:24] binding and this and that. And at first [51:26] I was very nervous about it. It is kind [51:28] of hard to put in a talis bag or [51:30] whatever it is. But then I was looking [51:31] at like where publishing is heading now. [51:34] And I actually think that now is [51:36] actually the time to publish books that [51:39] feel a little bit more like an entity [51:42] because we get inundated by so much [51:46] stuff and everybody's doing like free [51:48] download this, free download that you [51:49] print out 30 pages and then you know [51:51] where it it winds up in the gene or in [51:53] the garbage. [51:54] >> So I think there there's been some [51:55] articles on this in the in the secular [51:57] press. I think in the secular world this [51:59] is the case especially talk about [52:00] fantasy and science fiction where [52:01] they're doing a lot of these kind of [52:03] >> deluxe edition special edition stencled [52:06] end papers stencled edges um end special [52:10] maps and pictures end papers in the [52:12] Jewish world there's nothing they're not [52:13] doing this at all um there's you know [52:15] glossy covers and so they're not doing [52:17] any of this Jewish world is being very [52:19] generic and also what you're seeing a [52:20] lot in the academic world is that you're [52:22] seeing a lot of print on demand which is [52:25] horrible terrible quality They basically [52:27] take a paperback and they stick it in [52:28] two boards and glue it on. It's [52:30] horrible, terrible quality. $75 books [52:32] are doing it. Certain presses. [52:34] >> Some of the nice books you a the book [52:36] that you just put out there. [52:38] >> Yes. Which we can talk about. [52:38] >> Beautiful. Genuinely [52:41] we we did. Yes, it's right here. You can [52:43] uh show show it to the camera. [52:46] >> Well, I think also we worked very hard [52:47] on the on the cover. Shout out to my [52:49] friend Colin Beerman who helped me on [52:50] that. Then they did put kind of like [52:52] this. So these are end papers and I [52:54] think we're getting this more and more. [52:55] But I think to do like a design to do [52:57] but these are Italian rabbis no yamokas [52:59] but I think when you're and there's a [53:00] city of trieste but when you're doing [53:01] that I think it it adds a lot of [53:04] character and a lot of flavor also try [53:06] to do more modern fonts certain [53:08] publishers we won't name names use a [53:09] certain fonts that are just not modern [53:12] not interesting and this paper is [53:14] actually very white one thing maybe we [53:16] could have done is make them a little [53:16] more yellow maybe it's a little white [53:18] you can make a little bit more yellowy [53:20] or warmer um the paper also do a [53:22] bookmark which you do paper [53:25] thickness of the paper. This is also a 6 [53:27] by9 and we did the kind of the printed [53:29] cover rather than a stamped cover. [53:30] Correct. So there's a lot of aesthetics. [53:32] Actually I have I'm planning [53:33] >> I care about aesthetics. [53:34] >> I've been planning for a while. I'll [53:36] give a mention. It's actually spent [53:37] three hours one Thursday night. I think [53:39] it was a Thursday night preparing this [53:40] with Shiman Shimano. It's Ali Zas. We're [53:42] going to be doing a practical print [53:44] series on Chatter. If anyone's [53:46] interested or wants a sponsor. Yes. [53:47] Which will go through like how do I pick [53:49] a name of a safer? What font do I use? [53:51] Do I use an editor? Do I not? What color [53:53] paper? How thick should the paper be? Do [53:54] I do a printed cover, a stamped cover? [53:56] By the way, what is a printed cover and [53:57] a stamped cover? How many copies should [53:59] I print? How do I where where do you [54:00] print? What country? How do we ship it [54:02] here? Paperback, hard cover, 6 by9, [54:04] bigger size, bigger than that. Um, do we [54:06] do UV? This cover has something called [54:08] UV on it on the the words. Um, colors [54:11] and so on. So, there's a lot of [54:13] different things and I want to get [54:14] involved in real real practical print. [54:16] Um, what do you write by the copyright [54:18] page? Do you put your phone number? Do [54:19] you put your email? All these kind of [54:20] practical things that I'm that I want to [54:22] do. Uh so I'm planning on that two or [54:25] three episodes which I think very [54:26] hopeful brilliant for a lot of people um [54:29] that I think people will be interested. [54:30] Yeah. So [54:31] >> I think I said so in the second world [54:32] you're seeing a lot of especially with [54:33] fantasy. [54:34] >> My I'm do I'm I'm begging you the one [54:37] area I'm I'm I'm a a a a formal petition [54:42] do a series on how to write Torah and [54:45] history in English please. It's a big [54:49] issue just s the writing quality. [54:53] >> Yeah. Well, that's [54:53] >> I think you could do a great job. [54:56] Interview a couple of people who write [54:58] know how to write. [54:59] >> Yeah. But and we didn't even get into [55:00] the whole AI thing and how we're headed [55:02] with and the amount of AI slop coming [55:04] out especially in the Jewish world with [55:06] all the slop being printed. And I I I [55:08] public I posted because it was on [55:10] Amazon. I posted it. But listen, you're [55:11] you're put all these AI translations [55:13] now. Everybody's translating. No, but I [55:15] tweaked it. I [55:16] >> I don't mind the AI. I mean, so I think [55:18] there's a difference. I will point out [55:19] >> I think the difference between [55:20] translation versus the book [55:22] >> because translation means they're just [55:23] translating into English [55:24] >> and AI is really good at that. [55:25] >> Correct. Versus and that's not AI slop [55:28] versus when you have AI literally [55:30] writing the book [55:31] >> telling the story [55:32] >> telling the story and AI style there's [55:34] no creativity something's really lacking [55:37] there. So yeah so that that's something [55:38] so anyways the one aesthetics I think [55:40] aesthetics is important. I think one [55:42] aren't the heavy books like you said. [55:43] Can someone take it to shoot houseback? [55:45] Correct. Maybe there'll be a paperback [55:46] version of this one day which then you [55:48] can carry easily. But this is kind of a [55:50] deluxe edition with the color we can [55:52] show you have like the [55:53] >> the colors on the side. So I think [55:55] there's pictures inside. [55:56] >> It's the design is very nice. I think a [55:58] lot of that is is really nice. The way [56:00] that [56:00] >> I like the picture on the cover. It has [56:02] that like old new. This is a famous [56:04] painting. [56:04] >> The the painting is nice. I think that [56:06] is very nice. I think also what I always [56:08] like that Corin does is they do the kind [56:10] of matte which I I like matte. I think [56:12] it's modern. This is bound nicely. So I [56:14] think a lot of I think aesthetics are [56:16] important. You know the old this one of [56:18] the is the word falsest one of the [56:21] wrongest statements is don't judge a [56:23] book by its cover. [56:24] >> Everybody judges a book by its cover. [56:26] Everyone everyone goes into the [56:27] bookstore and says which they look at [56:29] the cover. That's what everybody does. [56:31] >> Penny Stiglet showed this to me. Penny [56:32] Seaglas who I interviewed who's one of [56:34] the from the Ziknes firm collectors um [56:39] he's unbelievable person but he one time [56:41] pulled me over I think it was right when [56:42] I was publishing my first book and he [56:44] said he showed me he has the first [56:46] edition of Chuvvis Riker he said if you [56:49] read the introduction to Chuvus Rebik [56:51] Ager rebar tells his kids I care about [56:54] the ink quality the paper quality the [56:56] font what font because this it helps [56:58] people learn better when it looks [57:00] beautiful so he showed In the first [57:02] edition trousers rebar when when the [57:04] when there's blank space on the page [57:07] they literally put like a picture of [57:09] like a flower a bird a swan a lighthouse [57:13] and the kids these were his kids who are [57:15] also good in their own rights they did [57:17] it because he they looked at what their [57:20] father said he wants this to be [57:22] beautiful [57:22] >> also I think what you're pointing out is [57:24] is that so in the age of downloads and [57:27] PDFs on what so on you want the book to [57:29] be a little bit bigger than a regular [57:30] book glossy paper color. There's [57:33] something unique about owning the book. [57:35] Now, that does raise the price of books [57:36] and I don't know if you've seen the [57:37] price of lately because it's crazy. [57:40] >> Price of sparum is like average $30 a [57:42] safer [57:43] >> and that has to do with the dollar [57:44] shekel printing all air shipping all is [57:47] crazy. So, there's a lot of issues. [57:48] >> There's a paper shortage. There is a lot [57:51] of there's a lot of issues. So, there's [57:53] a lot of issues there and then naturally [57:54] that's why people are turning to print [57:55] on demand. People printing stuff on [57:57] Amazon more and more. [57:58] >> I got I have a printer in my house. I [58:00] don't like the print on demand. [58:01] >> Well, print, right? Well, some of the [58:03] Amazon paperbacks are okay because it's [58:05] a paperback. It's even for a paperback [58:07] tell right away on the cover. [58:07] >> Yeah, you can tell right away it's poor. [58:08] No, also the the binding just poor even [58:11] even the paperbacks are not great. So, [58:13] that is a problem. I think I think that [58:15] is a problem. I think aesthetics listen [58:16] I've pushed certain publishers I don't [58:18] know if I want to say here to do kind of [58:20] these kind of specialty even with [58:22] novels. I was like, why don't you try [58:23] it? I know you try doing a special run [58:26] with special end papers. They don't want [58:28] the old Jewish guard. change and I'm [58:30] like but it works in the secular world. [58:31] Why don't you try it? But we have a [58:33] smaller market. So try it. [58:35] >> Try it. See if there's going to be an [58:36] interest. They always do a little bonus [58:38] material. Like I come from the fantasy [58:40] world. So I mean they're this is huge [58:42] there. Look in any Barnes & Noble. [58:43] You'll see this [58:44] >> for sure. [58:45] >> And what happened there was there were [58:47] these small niche publishers doing this. [58:49] >> Folio Society and you were having [58:52] whatever others. [58:53] >> Now the big publishers decided, hey, we [58:55] should get in on this. There's money [58:57] there. So now they're re-releasing. So, [58:58] they have a hard cover, then a [58:59] paperback, and then they're going to [59:00] release the special edition, the special [59:02] edition, the bonus, all the bonus [59:03] material and the extra and and the [59:05] colored end papers. They're all doing [59:06] this. Yeah. [59:07] >> And they're charging a little more [59:08] money, and people are buying it. [59:09] >> That's what I want. I I we have not yet [59:12] had that renaissance of I think the [59:16] renaissance of Hebrew Torah publishing, [59:19] we have explosion, but Torah in English [59:23] for English language Torah, [59:25] >> I think there's a lot. I think there's a [59:27] lot um I I don't know interesting [59:30] especially you talk about history and [59:32] history like I think you know we'll [59:33] point to Mosaic press say a name mosaic [59:36] publish publishes a lot of stuff [59:37] >> I love we love everybody [59:39] >> we love everyone a lot mosaic prints [59:41] many interesting books and many books [59:43] that are not necessarily so interesting [59:44] you know you look at all the publishers [59:46] I think it depends some of them the [59:47] books are very interesting you know [59:48] koren has some interesting books not so [59:50] interesting yeah and so [59:51] >> it depends I think there's a lot of [59:53] Torah books though like I think you see [59:54] from Mosaic and from Koran and from our [59:56] You see a lot of it books. [59:58] >> I'm a fine schmecker when it comes to [60:00] the writing quality. [60:01] >> I I for me again now I'm not naming any [60:04] names when it comes to quality writing [60:07] quality topics. I think there's very [60:09] little and I made the mistake of putting [60:11] on sphat a few days ago. I said [60:13] >> really before this year to recommend new [60:16] stuff and I go I got hey what about [60:18] this? What about that? And I deleted it. [60:20] So I deleted the comment but I really [60:21] stand by the comment. It it it the [60:23] writing there's just not a lot of like [60:26] oh that's a great new book I'm going to [60:28] pick up [60:28] >> keeps you and it grabs you there's not a [60:31] lot of so you have things like this your [60:32] book which is [60:34] >> let's no one's picking up your book [60:35] probably probably not and saying I'm [60:37] going to read this now [60:38] >> the whole thing [60:39] >> no they're going to buy I read this over [60:40] shabas and they're going to read every [60:42] week an essay because it's fascinating [60:43] and it will be the gateway [60:44] >> they're short and they're doable yeah [60:46] >> and it's the gateway now to explore the [60:48] topic with the further reading list [60:50] >> exactly [60:50] >> but like a book that you could just like [60:51] pick up and read like when's the last [60:53] time you picked up a book from major [60:54] publishing? You're like that's a great [60:55] book. Let me recommend that to [60:56] everybody. I'm sure there are. But [60:58] >> some of the stuff that you recommend [60:59] though is probably the stuff that I've [61:00] gotten to. I [61:01] >> I try to recommend like when when Litman [61:03] published Rabbi Dr. Yassi Leavine's [61:05] Kakam book. I like you know how many [61:07] people wrote that book? I I [61:10] phenomenal book. Phenomenal book. [61:12] >> Yeah. [61:12] >> But even in academia lately it's been [61:15] kind of [61:15] >> weak very weak. [61:16] >> Very [61:17] >> in English language. in Hebrew. There is [61:19] >> in Hebrew is [61:20] >> a lot there's a lot coming out in Israel [61:22] where all the best stuff is. [61:23] >> There's a lot coming out in Israel and [61:24] we're eagerly awaiting [61:26] uh Rabbi Dr. JJ Shakar's Migillafer [61:28] which should be out very soon. [61:30] >> The problem with the Israeli books which [61:32] are phenomenal is the publishing houses [61:35] look like they still have their original [61:37] website from the year I know 1970s. [61:40] >> Magnus Magnus is new. Barilan is new. [61:43] Yeah. [61:43] >> And they're ship like [61:44] >> Magn so Magnus you can order to America [61:46] they ship. I still feel like I've [61:48] ordered a book on Magnus maybe a couple [61:50] years ago. It's still on its way. [61:51] >> Ships, Magnus ships, the ships, baran [61:53] ships. They're really the only three [61:55] though and it is expensive but they do [61:57] ship. [61:57] >> Okay. [61:57] >> Otherwise you got to go to Eagle Eizen [61:58] or you can message me abroad from that. [62:01] That's your only options. You you can't [62:02] get these books in America. Very very [62:04] very rare unless like you know brings it [62:06] in. Yeah. So some of this stuff is great [62:08] stuff. There's really interesting [62:10] material coming out. It's just it's not [62:11] available here. [62:12] >> Correct. [62:13] >> Unfortunately. So, but but again, many [62:15] people don't read Hebrew books and he [62:17] even for me, Hebrew books are more of a [62:18] slog to get through. [62:20] >> Yeah. Especially because now so much of [62:22] Hebrew is [62:23] >> very modern. [62:23] >> Very modern. [62:24] >> Very modern. [62:25] >> Even if even if they're the the the [62:28] words that they're using you can't scan [62:31] so quickly because you have to like [62:33] transliterate. [62:34] >> Took me a while when I was reading [62:35] >> to get the English words. [62:36] >> Yeah. When it was like soci [62:40] reading like Exactly. So it [62:43] >> exactly [62:44] >> rule of thumb that I've learned as a [62:46] native English speaker, if the word is [62:48] long and really weird looking, [62:49] >> it's probably English academic word that [62:52] >> start reading. Exactly. [62:53] >> Not in Hebrew. You Oh, I know that word. [62:55] >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. So you'll get [62:58] specific. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, it's [62:59] specific. I pronounce these words like [63:01] it's about reading. Um, [63:04] >> so I think Yeah. I don't know. It's kind [63:06] of we need to people have to write books [63:08] that we're interested. [63:09] >> This is your work. This is the work that [63:10] we do together trying to make sure that [63:12] >> you know when when Shabas Khila came out [63:16] in a time there was modernity was all [63:17] coming so RV wrote in the introduction [63:19] he says I'm writing this so we don't [63:21] forget terrorist hashabas so I'm not I'm [63:24] not writing and neither of us are are [63:26] making sure people don't forget to [63:27] hashabas I think genuinely our work [63:29] people should not forget to har reading [63:32] do and and it's it really is a shasak [63:34] for for everybody this is the dart we [63:37] could khala forget about reading we grew [63:39] up at Fahrenheit 451. [63:42] >> We both Bradberry. Yeah, [63:43] >> it's a it's a scary book, but but a lot [63:47] of these books are dystopian. You know, [63:48] you read 1984 and you're like, wait, are [63:50] we living in Orwell's world? But I think [63:52] >> and this was the piece I wrote about the [63:54] Wall Street Journal and this was the [63:55] cover story in the Atlantic. Yes. A [63:57] month ago, the end of the age of [63:58] reading. There's actually a new book out [64:00] about this also. This is this is thing [64:02] that people scare. I mean, look how many [64:03] people and if you read the article, you [64:05] read read all those things. Everyone [64:06] reads, right? They have text messages [64:08] and and online but but are people [64:10] sitting and reading books and the one [64:12] thing we're protected [64:13] >> as Jewish people is we have Shabas and [64:15] Yumpt we don't have the phones we don't [64:16] have that but you need to sit and read [64:20] and and disconnect and read mag and even [64:23] read long form you know magazine I I [64:25] think there is an interest you're seeing [64:27] this resurgence I think the Atlantic [64:28] went from 10 months a year to 12 months [64:30] a year recently correct so there is [64:32] there is an interest in print yes [64:33] >> you know people are still reading the [64:34] New Yorker people are still reading [64:36] print there is an interest in print um [64:38] you know in print magazines but I I [64:41] think in quality quality especially when [64:43] it comes to history and and I think it's [64:46] important that people really read uh and [64:48] that's another thing we didn't discuss [64:49] when it comes to like academic books so [64:51] >> me and you will read these kind of [64:53] jargonfilled like dry academic books and [64:56] they're hard to get through look they're [64:57] hard to get through I have to get hard [64:59] it's hard [65:00] >> so there's something to be said for an [65:02] enjoyable academic book I know academics [65:04] like train to write boring and like [65:06] tedious like some of them are [65:08] >> some of them are really good like I like [65:10] a lot of them are more modern a lot of [65:12] them are like the biographies are [65:14] sometimes [65:14] >> biographies are out of vogue in academia [65:16] I know [65:17] >> it's not to write a biography [65:19] >> I know but those are the ones that can [65:20] be written very well some of the books [65:22] that you read what's his name um Paw um [65:26] >> Pav M [65:26] >> yeah I can't pronounce his last name but [65:28] you introduced me I love his writing [65:30] multitude [65:30] >> he writes beautifully terrific book [65:32] >> he writes so beautifully but you notice [65:34] when you're reading it you're like I'm [65:36] not feeling that like crest of like that [65:39] I'm like mama's like trying to get [65:41] through a rajba when you're reading in [65:43] English like and sometimes you feel that [65:44] when you read [65:45] >> there's some certain academic books you [65:46] know we talk about the pursuit of heresy [65:48] by [65:52] >> she's a phenomenal writer [65:53] >> terrific book her palaces of time was [65:55] very good also about like calendars [65:57] really really good book [65:57] >> you don't you never read that [65:58] >> I did that's a great book [66:00] >> it's phenomenal [66:00] >> that's a great book [66:01] >> spicy also [66:02] >> yeah that's a great book [66:03] >> some of the calendars are very spicy she [66:04] has a lot of pictures in there. Her [66:06] books are very beautiful also. [66:07] >> Yes, they did a great job. That one was [66:09] I think that was the Belcon press of [66:10] Harvard. That's like a division of [66:11] Harvard press which doesn't publish many [66:13] Jewish books anymore because it's [66:14] Harvard. But that was that's well done. [66:16] Their books are all well done. [66:18] >> So that was that was a good book. [66:20] >> I I think there are some books you know [66:21] recently the autobiography that came out [66:24] that was great that those two volumes I [66:26] think [66:26] >> that was academic studies press that's [66:28] who did my synagogue. [66:28] >> Yes. M Rottenfeld. I interviewed him on [66:31] both books. That's a great book that [66:32] came out. Yeah, like I said the book was [66:34] good a little heavier but Alishabak's [66:37] book with Deborah Kaplan [66:38] >> about women the early modern woman you [66:41] had them also on 1840 that was a very [66:43] good book a little heavier because the [66:45] subject matter is heavier but [66:46] >> yeah I like that I like the pictures [66:47] >> that's a very good book fascinating [66:49] important book [66:50] >> but a lot of books again so sometimes [66:52] books are dry you have to know [66:53] readability I think is the key point [66:54] when I recommend people especially [66:56] layman right we're getting to like what [66:57] do you recommend them to read [66:58] >> I do factor in readability I can't just [67:00] tell them to read some you know tedious [67:02] micro history of the Jews of, you know, [67:05] Italy. [67:05] >> This actually shocks me because you must [67:08] get and I used to have this uh where [67:11] yeshiva guys would reach out to me and [67:13] be like, what's your starter pack? [67:16] What's your starter pack of like, and I [67:19] had a starter pack of like here are the [67:21] books that really contributed. And my [67:23] starter pack wasn't exclusively Jewish [67:25] history. Some of it was like more like [67:27] Jewish communal. I put like uh Jew verse [67:30] Jew by Samuel Freriedman. I think it's [67:31] brilliant a brilliant book structured [67:33] really well all contemporary but you [67:36] should come out with that like a start [67:38] you should have I'm just giving you [67:39] unsolicited advice starter packs on [67:42] every major topic I still think the [67:45] starting point a lot of these topics are [67:47] golden oldies even if they're outdated a [67:49] little bit I I you know read Sisle Roth [67:51] on the Jews in the Renaissance and the [67:52] Jews in Italy it he doesn't have a lot [67:54] of end notes or footnotes it's outdated [67:57] a lot of it but he's such a wonderful [67:59] writer [68:00] >> he's Great. So yes, take it with a grain [68:02] of salt. There's [68:03] >> my friend butler who played a big role [68:06] in my own understanding of Jewish [68:08] history. He would recommend always to [68:10] read the old encyclopedia of Judea. [68:12] >> Yeah. But but that's a little boring to [68:16] I I think to read is the founder of he [68:18] knows everything of knowledge. He knows [68:20] every he knows every PDF, everything, [68:22] >> right? [68:22] >> But he's the one who told me he says if [68:24] you want to get that like really strong [68:26] foundation have an old the old ' 70s. [68:28] Listen, Wikipedia is a good starting [68:31] place. As a starting place, especially [68:33] Hebrew Wikipedia, not English. Hebrew is [68:35] much better. [68:36] >> That's a good starting place. Now, [68:37] everyone just does AI and they're just, [68:38] oh, well, I have a friend writes for a [68:41] publication. Not going to name names. [68:44] >> And he No, he's a great guy. [68:46] >> I know, man. [68:47] >> And he sent me a comment. Nah, what do [68:49] you say to this? And I'm like, well, I [68:52] mean, maybe it depends on one, two, [68:55] three, four qualification. He's like, so [68:57] yes. I'm like, well, this one paragraph [68:59] requires a lot of research. Did you get [69:01] this from AI? Well, yes, it cited one [69:04] thing. I wanted I'm like, okay, look, [69:06] you can't write this. You have no idea. [69:08] You're not you're not analyzing this. [69:09] You're just giving me this and like [69:12] maybe [69:12] >> Yeah, [69:13] >> I just requires knowing XYZ. Okay, I [69:15] revised it. I took it out. [69:17] >> Well, I he asked me. So, not that I'm [69:19] with anybody could ask whoever the [69:20] expert is, but like don't don't do that. [69:22] >> But where did you learn how to write so [69:23] well in English? Like I [69:24] >> I don't I don't write I don't know that [69:25] I write so well in English. You write [69:27] you [69:28] >> I write I write I write not enough. I [69:30] don't think I have enough time because [69:32] I'm so busy with the podcast and work on [69:34] family and and work. Um but it's not [69:38] right. I think it's reading. The more [69:39] you read, the more you see how to read, [69:40] the more you know how to think [69:41] critically and know what you're reading [69:43] and what you're quoting. So I I think as [69:46] going back to what you asked the starter [69:48] pack, I think let's again something like [69:50] some [69:51] >> the Rashi book you mentioned. Yes. So [69:53] Raji book is good scholarship. Is there [69:55] newer like sometimes academics see a [69:57] little pedantic? Well, on this theme [70:00] there's more foot of a footnote. Okay, [70:02] you're right. You're right. Yeah. [70:04] >> On that it's a little you know wrong. Is [70:05] it this, you know, are they called [70:07] moriranos? Should they be called [70:08] conversos? Yeah. Okay. [70:09] >> Okay. Fair. Fair. So whenever you see [70:10] the word, think converso. Right. Right. [70:13] Exactly. [70:13] >> Exactly. Now it's a Korean civ. There [70:16] definitely are like arguments like if [70:17] you're going to read Netanyahu on on on [70:20] what's going on in Spain or Annie [70:21] Baranel, there's a lot of push back and [70:23] a lot of Netanyahu's work, you can kind [70:25] of read both sides and see where you [70:26] want to fall on what you think. So that [70:29] is an issue with reading old books, but [70:30] you there's a starting point like these [70:32] global kind of books that you can just [70:33] start off at. Like I mentioned, Gman's [70:35] Rashi is a great book to start on with [70:37] Rashi and all the books plans. I mean, [70:40] it depends on the topic you're looking [70:41] at. You know, finders of Jewish [70:43] Enlightenment is great on reading up on [70:45] on about the period. Um, and you want to [70:48] read about the enlightment. I like some [70:49] of the books in the Jewish lives series [70:51] from Yale. Some are good, some are not [70:54] good. [70:55] >> Like the manasha minra book by Stephen [70:57] Nadler. Wonderful book. [70:59] >> Loved it. [70:59] >> Um, Rembrandt's Jews is not in that [71:01] series by by Nadler. Also a great book. [71:03] >> Also great. [71:03] >> You can learn about the Jews of [71:04] Amsterdam. Fantastic. [71:05] >> Thank you for mentioning Yale Jewish [71:06] Live. I I have great love for it even [71:09] though I know they strike out like [71:11] airball a couple. [71:12] >> I asked this too. So, Pavlov Macheo is [71:14] writing a biography of [71:16] said, "Pavo, you're like an expert shop. [71:18] Makes sense. They hired you." [71:20] >> Professor Hudkov Cook. Excellent. Um, [71:23] Steven Nadler. Great. And then there's [71:25] like the Rambam one, the Spinosa one. [71:27] Whoa. Who did they have write these [71:29] books? Why do they pick non-experts? [71:31] Some I don't understand this. Take an [71:33] expert. Martin Goodman and Herod. [71:35] Wonderful book. He's an He's one of the [71:37] world experts in Oxford on the time [71:39] period. They missed a couple. But why on [71:41] some of them do they [71:41] >> a good one though? Houdini is excellent. [71:44] >> I don't read a lot of the secular ones. [71:45] You like that? [71:46] >> Deep dive. Deep dive in Harry Houdini. I [71:48] loved it. Oh, very smart. [71:50] >> So some of these books have what what's [71:51] great about that series though is cheap [71:53] and affordable and they they make them [71:55] in 200 pages. Those are like perfect for [71:56] over [71:57] >> Shabas. Oh, they're my favorite reads. [71:59] Yes. [72:00] >> So I wish they would do some better
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