Transcript [00:01] Rabbi Dr. Mayor Senda, the leader of [00:04] Talot and the director which is really a [00:07] Jewish contemplative society opportunity [00:10] to connect more people with their [00:11] heritage and thinking more deeply about [00:13] life. Thank you so much for joining us [00:14] here today. [00:14] >> Yeah, it's a pleasure. So what is Jewish [00:17] mysticism? [00:18] >> Yeah. So the first question is what is [00:21] mysticism which is uh it's direct [00:24] experience of divine reality. That's [00:27] that's what it's about. And divine [00:29] reality includes heavenly reality. [00:32] Certainly it's direct experience to ext [00:35] the extent we can have an experience of [00:37] Hashem. Uh and you know all of the [00:40] structures of Shmayam angels and on [00:44] mysticism. Jewish mysticism is the [00:47] Jewish experiences of divine reality [00:50] over the course of our you know of our [00:52] heritage of our centuries. Yeah. And [00:57] gone with that. I mean kabala is often [01:00] understood as you know the very essence [01:01] of Jewish mysticism but actually it's it [01:04] reaches back to you know you know senai [01:07] itself I mean we could ask the question [01:09] you know is Judaism a mystical [01:12] religion uh and you'd have to say yes I [01:15] mean from if mystism is direct [01:18] experience of divine reality [01:20] was a collective direct experience of [01:23] divine reality uh all of the naveim the [01:26] prophets the the prophets It's a direct [01:28] experience of divine reality. the [01:30] rabbitic period uh the development of [01:33] meditation methods of the yord de merava [01:36] and the olealot these extraordinary [01:39] experiences of the angelic realms direct [01:42] experience of divine reality you know [01:44] and then on into the uh period of the [01:49] the raanima an extraordinary book [01:52] appears safer [01:54] uh which is it's a a concise brief [01:58] concise book but it stre [02:00] lays out ao a whole vision of the the [02:02] structure of reality. Uh that God [02:04] creates reality based on 10 spherote [02:08] which are numbers and qualities of [02:10] divine revelation. Uh and 22 letters of [02:13] the Hebrew alphabet. Uh and that and it [02:15] goes into detail on on how reality is [02:19] structured that way. uh and then [02:23] the in the philosophic tradition and the [02:26] uh the rabbitic tradition the [02:27] commentaries on s then we find in the [02:32] 12th century late 12th century um they a [02:36] a group of great in southern France in [02:39] province uh put together previous [02:42] mystical traditions all all the previous [02:45] mystical traditions uh together with [02:47] seafir in a structure and along with a [02:49] theory of the unfolding of reality from [02:53] Hashem from God uh through process of [02:56] emanation uh and came up with a a system [03:00] uh this is uh Aram bin David Pascar and [03:03] his son Noah Rab Isaac the blind come [03:07] with a system uh uh that we that was [03:10] called and then we told called today [03:12] kabala uh that's the the formal system [03:15] which is the the that putting together [03:19] of the the entire entire Jewish mystical [03:21] tradition organized according to the [03:23] principles of safiate sierra and the [03:25] concept of emanation. So in a nutshell [03:28] >> Jewish mysticism. [03:29] >> So how did you get into this? What made [03:30] you connect more to Jewish mysticism? [03:33] >> Um I'm Jewish. Yeah. And uh I have to [03:37] say a series of of um personal [03:40] experiences. um we call them um oradat [03:46] um enlighten enlightened experiences [03:49] over the course of my of my life. [03:51] >> Are you comfortable to share one of [03:52] them? [03:55] >> Um I could I you know I don't usually I [03:58] I don't like to [04:01] uh what can I say? I'm I'm bashful about [04:03] it, but I will say it at one point. Um, [04:06] okay. Uh, [04:11] woke up in the middle of the night. Um, [04:14] I was it was in college at that time. [04:16] Woke up in the middle of the night. Um, [04:19] looked around, looked at myself, [04:21] realized [04:23] I don't know anything about this reality [04:25] that I'm in. I mean, it just really sort [04:30] of out of the blue. I don't know [04:32] anything about this reality that I'm in. [04:34] And just that awareness let me opened me [04:37] up to I mean extraordinary um awareness [04:43] uh a sense of um can I say [04:48] uh [04:50] in eternal eternal time. Um totally [04:55] expansive. Um the uh the [05:00] you say the [05:03] I could look back in all of of time uh [05:06] all around me all throughout I mean I [05:08] felt the the entire universe from one [05:10] end to the other uh there's a passage in [05:13] the the beginning of the second per of [05:17] kagiga which raila says uh the the the [05:22] thaton [05:25] extended from one end of the of the from [05:27] the earth from heaven to earth and then [05:29] uh rebuild in the name of Rob says from [05:31] one end of the universe to the other [05:33] that's how I felt uh it says that and [05:35] the light of the first day of realiz [05:37] continues on that uh uh one could see [05:40] from one end of the universe to the [05:42] other that's what I could see uh it was [05:45] it lasted for quite a while uh then I [05:49] actually went to sleep and then was [05:51] normal the next the next time uh by the [05:54] way this is in the in the 60s But no, [05:58] nothing out of say nothing out of the [06:01] ordinary was involved. Okay. This was [06:03] just an experience. [06:05] >> Amazing. [06:05] >> Uh so that was that was what set me off. [06:08] Um [06:08] >> and that's happened multiple times in [06:10] your life. Something of that nature. [06:11] >> Yeah. [06:12] >> Yeah. [06:12] >> And then how do you transform a burst of [06:14] inspiration like that into a practical [06:17] approach? How did you sort of navigate [06:19] or traverse from that into actually [06:21] studying these texts? Well, I felt that, [06:23] you know, the our tradition then has, [06:25] you know, is a record in the mystical [06:28] aspects of Torah tradition is a record [06:30] of such experiences. Uh, and I really [06:32] felt I had to to go deeply into you into [06:35] our heritage to understand what I had [06:37] experienced. Um, and it, you know, it [06:40] came into focus based on the learning [06:43] that I did and certainly was attracted [06:45] to uh to the cabalistic tradition, the [06:48] traditions. Um um yeah [06:52] >> in an ideal world would all Jews be [06:54] mystics? [06:56] >> Um yes in an ideal world we would as [07:01] Yahoo says as all as many of the the NM [07:04] say we would all have direct experience [07:05] of divine reality. We all did at Sai at [07:08] one point and and may we all do again. [07:11] >> So when you say direct experience of [07:12] divine reality you're referring to God [07:14] in whatever way that means. What do you [07:16] think of when you think of God? [07:19] That's a great question. The the you [07:22] know in in the cabalistic tradition and [07:24] very importantly God is one and God is [07:27] in himself. [07:29] The and that's important have to have [07:32] both aspects of [07:33] >> both one and infinite [07:34] >> and one and infinite one and infinite. [07:37] Uh and just to even to try to put that [07:41] together in some sense in your mind is [07:43] mindblowing. mindblowing but important [07:47] to remember you know because there are [07:48] other religions that consider themselves [07:50] monotheistic but monotheism alone seeing [07:55] God as one can get uh rather narrow [07:58] there's an exclusive oneness uh but when [08:01] we understand as the the cabalistic [08:04] tradition insists that God is in so [08:07] beyond all names beyond all forms beyond [08:10] all you know any attempt to to grasp [08:13] apprehend God uh this opens up our minds [08:17] transcendedly [08:19] and you know endlessly and infinitely uh [08:22] but along with that I think it's very [08:24] important to remember God says [08:28] God is also [08:30] personal to a level that we can cannot [08:33] even begin to comprehend. uh uh but [08:36] personal intimate and yet yes one a sofa [08:40] to put all of that you know and well [08:44] >> is there is there like you described [08:45] like so many paradoxes there and so many [08:47] profound depths is there an image you [08:50] have is there a feeling you have is [08:51] there a sensation you have when you [08:53] think of God [08:55] >> hopefully not [08:57] because we're not to have an image and [08:59] we're not you know and you know any [09:01] sensation that you have on one day of a [09:03] sense of intimacy with the next day will [09:05] be different and that's very important. [09:07] Yeah, [09:07] >> it's you know uh we're you know [09:13] >> always [09:14] I will be you know you know as I will be [09:17] exactly [09:18] >> and so what's the purpose of the Jewish [09:20] people [09:22] >> to be honest I think we are the honest [09:25] people you know honest ethically uh [09:27] honest spiritually uh trying to be [09:30] honest about reality uh the uh you know [09:33] that's uh and that shows in so many ways [09:37] even even in our you know our love of [09:40] argument and you know and discussion uh [09:43] we're looking for truth uh and in that [09:46] sense you know that's how we are the [09:48] orim by the way let me say about [09:50] something about that phrase uh it's a [09:52] pet peeve [09:53] >> be a light unto the nations [09:54] >> ah but but it's actually that's a pet [09:56] peeve of mine sorry [09:59] whenever says it it's orim [10:03] >> not orim often quoted uh in text as orim [10:06] It's not or langu is a we are light unto [10:10] the nations as we are as if we are you [10:12] know apart from the nations and [10:13] bestowing something upon the nations [10:15] we're light of the nations is a genative [10:17] construct or going and from from within [10:21] the nations we are to be that light of [10:24] you know of truth and honesty uh of [10:27] compassion of mutual helping each other [10:30] I mean that that's that's what we're [10:31] about when Hashem says [10:36] where Does he send Abra? [10:37] >> He tells Abram to go [10:38] >> to go. Where is he sending Abrau in [10:43] those days? He sent Abraham into the [10:45] most dangerous neighborhood in the [10:47] world, which by the way, it still is the [10:49] most dangerous neighborhood. Canan, you [10:52] know, it was the it's called Derkayam [10:54] between the the great civilizations of [10:56] Egypt and Mesopotamia. Uh it's where [10:59] there were all these mom and pop tribes [11:01] that were constantly fighting each [11:02] other. Uh praying on the on the caravans [11:05] going between the two civilizations or [11:07] extorting them for you to to to allow [11:10] them through and into this [11:13] wild wild east. You know that wild wild [11:17] west from Abraham sends Abraham to this [11:19] Hashem sends Abraham to this place. Why? [11:22] And with what? you know, with an ethical [11:24] vision, with a spiritual vision, with [11:26] his connection to Hashem himself to [11:29] bring, you know, light, to bring [11:31] enlightenment uh to bring morality to [11:35] the nations uh and with what the with [11:38] what that that ethical vision that [11:41] ultimately uh laid the groundwork for [11:42] the reception of the Torah itself. [11:44] That's [11:45] >> and that ethical vision continues to be [11:47] our purpose in this. [11:48] >> That is our purpose in this world. [11:50] >> So, how does prayer work? [11:52] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean prayer is are talking [11:54] to God. Uh the [11:59] the question is do we really talk to [12:02] God? You know, I mean we so we have you [12:04] know we we have now the uh keva the the [12:08] fixed a fixed liturgy in a sided and you [12:10] know you can page to the sidur you know [12:14] in in three times a day and you can end [12:16] up just reading a book. Does it does it [12:18] go anywhere? No, that's the question. Uh [12:21] there's it's a Balchtov story. Um was [12:25] once with someone and they approaching a [12:28] uh a shul you know a uh and he steps [12:32] into the into the synagogue and then he [12:34] steps out. He steps in. He steps out and [12:38] that are with him. What's going on? He [12:40] says I can't go in. The the the bet is [12:43] filled with prayers. [12:45] And well well that's a good thing. [12:48] That's shouldn't a a a pat be synagogue [12:52] be filled with prayers? He said, "No, [12:54] you don't understand. It's filled with [12:56] prayers that aren't going anywhere." Uh [12:58] and they're they're just sitting here [12:59] and it's, you know, it they're not [13:02] really reaching, you know, to shay. Uh [13:06] when it comes to [13:08] toil, you know, it it it don't mean a [13:11] thing if it ain't got that fling. It's [13:13] got to you got to be able to fling it to [13:15] Hashem. So, how do we do that? And [13:17] that's the that's the the great great [13:19] challenge. I mean we have a the the [13:23] defining puk before we start the amida [13:28] really I think gives us a uh an [13:31] orientation [13:33] uh to to what is about we say [13:40] he said god open my lips you and my [13:43] mouth will declare your praise. [13:46] So who's praying, right? I mean, God, [13:49] open my lips and my mouth sounds like [13:51] God's praying through you. [13:52] >> It's God's praying through us, you know, [13:54] and in truth, you know, we we sort of [13:58] ask God to do this, but this is [13:59] happening all the time as the cabalistic [14:02] tradition, the kidic tradition, the [14:04] balento nag mezvich [14:06] it whenever we speak, it's the the world [14:09] of words which is the divine world, the [14:12] world is speaking through us. We we [14:14] didn't invent language. uh we find [14:16] ourselves with uh the the ability to [14:19] speak uh we find ourselves with language [14:22] um that's empowered from beyond us uh [14:26] and it's it's empowered by Hashem [14:28] himself by God himself so if we pray in [14:32] this way that um wellto recommends this [14:35] mag recommends there's a beautiful [14:38] passage in Pinas [14:41] says when you really understand what's [14:43] happening in The chilah itself is God [14:46] speaking through you. That's what's [14:49] happening. And soil itself done in with [14:53] this consciousness is a profoundly [14:56] mystical experience. Um this is really [15:01] as it's intended to be when put the [15:03] rabbis put this verse from you know at [15:08] the beginning of the which is the climax [15:09] of God open my lips and my mouth will [15:12] declare your praise. [15:15] How close are we to God? God is opening [15:17] our lips in praise of God. How beautiful [15:19] that is. How beautiful. So that's tila. [15:22] I mean the [15:25] then there's a you know then there's [15:27] meditation [15:29] or even taking a contemplative approach [15:31] to tila itself. Um this is something I'm [15:35] you know personally invested in. from [15:36] that those experiences that I've had [15:39] that the um I've seen the importance of [15:42] meditation and we have a profound rich [15:46] tradition of Jewish meditation authentic [15:48] Jewish meditation uh that it tunes our [15:51] consciousness to be able to appreciate [15:54] uh our constant connection with Hashem [15:56] to be able to to pray you know in uh you [16:00] know with with a sense that this is the [16:03] most intimate relationship we that we [16:05] have with Hashem as we as we voice these [16:07] words. I mean the Rambam inim um it's in [16:11] part three chapter 32 hints that you [16:14] know the perhaps the the highest way of [16:18] communing with Hashem is through [16:20] meditation and he actually gives some [16:21] suggestions later on uh meditation [16:24] practices in part three chapter 51 um [16:28] but we're we there's there's a place for [16:31] in words as well um the Maharal talks [16:34] about this that words uh are this sort [16:38] center of meaning of our being and so we [16:40] can use words but to use them in a [16:42] contemplative way to use them you know [16:44] with and to be able to fling them to God [16:46] so to speak and that's [16:50] >> what about Torah study what's the goal [16:52] of Torah study [16:54] >> you know on the one hand gives us [16:58] information on mats hashem [17:00] >> the will of God [17:00] >> is the will of God you know um and but [17:04] it's not just information on the will of [17:06] God it's attunement [17:07] to the will of God in the process of the [17:09] study itself. You know, here the the one [17:11] of the great great insights into Torah [17:14] study is from [17:19] part four where he where he says [17:22] basically when you're studying Torah, [17:25] you are immersed in Hashem and you are [17:29] immersed in the mind of God. you're [17:32] immersed in the will of God and the mind [17:34] of God. [17:36] And to understand that that's what's [17:38] happening when we're learning Torah is [17:40] profound. Uh when you can learn in that [17:43] way, um there's a kind of a flow. I [17:47] mean, it it's, you know, the uh [17:52] it it it's, you know, it so the study [17:55] itself is not just to give us [17:56] information. It's it's the attunement [17:58] itself [18:00] to God's mind. And uh and that's that's [18:03] a profound thing. [18:04] >> Does Jewish mysticism view men and women [18:06] as the same? [18:11] >> No. [18:13] You know the uh [18:18] one of my favorite more contemporary [18:19] philosophers is Emanuel Levas and he [18:22] warns us about this this phrase the [18:23] same. Be very careful with the same. [18:25] It's a it's a reductionist kind of uh [18:28] phrase. And today, frankly, with what's [18:31] going on in, you know, the perversions [18:33] of woke culture, it's really important, [18:35] I think, to straighten this out a bit. [18:37] Um, [18:39] you know, the [18:43] men and women are created, but celamelo [18:46] >> in the image of God. [18:47] >> In the image of God and men and women [18:49] together are the image of God. uh the uh [18:54] that the [18:56] I mean that's that's one of the deep [18:58] ideas of Torah perhaps one of the one of [19:00] its deepest ideas that's that's our [19:02] compatibility with God uh that we are in [19:04] the image of God [19:07] and only as men and women together uh we [19:10] have commonalities certainly we have um [19:13] ways in which we are complimentary with [19:15] each other uh you know I am wary on the [19:20] one hand [19:22] sort of boxing men and women into you [19:25] know very rigid roles. [19:28] Uh today there's you know women are [19:31] learning Torah at an extraordinary rate [19:33] and you know that you know was not the [19:35] case you know more than a century ago. [19:38] You know um our daughter Tara uh it's [19:41] one of the directors at Nishmat where [19:44] women are learning at a at a really [19:46] sophisticated level. [19:49] uh it's a um you know and and that that [19:54] ability needs to be explored. I mean [19:56] that's a uh and and yet there are [19:58] differences um you know as as every [20:01] couple knows a husband and wife uh uh [20:03] there are commonalities and aspects that [20:06] are importantly complimentary [20:08] u the [20:12] in the cabalistic sense um Adam and Kaba [20:16] Adam and Eve were compraed created two [20:19] parts of uh originally as one one being [20:25] uh and Then there's a process of nisira [20:28] uh it's from the separation [20:29] >> separation of soaring apart it's in [20:31] gammorot then it becomes a major theme [20:34] uh in um in zohor but in particularly in [20:37] the Torah of the Arizal kakuri a 16th [20:39] century abilist [20:42] and the so they're originally one being [20:46] okay that sounds like that's very [20:48] unified what could be better than that [20:50] but they were created back to back in [20:52] the the uh the gammor cabalistic [20:56] Zohar etc back to back and they're [20:59] soared down the middle and brought face [21:02] to face you know um so the the reason [21:06] you know in talks about [21:11] the the the secret or the mystery of [21:13] this sawing apart one might have thought [21:15] that what could be more unified they're [21:18] one body but back to back facing in [21:21] different directions that's unified but [21:23] it's they're facing in different [21:24] directions. They're sorted apart and [21:26] brought back together panim face to [21:28] face. That unity that that spiritual [21:32] awareness yet being diff separate beings [21:37] and yet spiritually connected is [21:40] considered a higher unity than that [21:42] original physical unity. Um so in that's [21:47] very much I think a a a beautiful know [21:50] symbolic framework for for understanding [21:54] uh both the commonality and the [21:56] complimentarity of men and women [21:58] together and we need to respect both. I [22:00] mean I think you know every every [22:02] healthy couple uh understands the all [22:05] those balances. So what is the you know [22:07] you're involved in creating more [22:08] contemplative society [22:11] making people compl contemplate more in [22:14] tune to themselves being more spiritual [22:16] what do you see as the greatest obstacle [22:18] to living a more spiritual life [22:25] question [22:30] I could approach this in two ways [22:33] on a practical level distraction [22:36] um you know uh we as they say we're [22:40] distracted from distraction by [22:41] distraction. I mean the um you know [22:47] and and the technologies that we have [22:49] particularly uh the the social media and [22:51] and you know the cell phones I I have a [22:54] smartphone so I'm not saying not to have [22:56] one but it's but uh but they can they [23:00] can really distract us. they've uh [23:03] apparently had an effect on even even [23:05] children's attention spans etc. So [23:09] that's a very serious problem in in [23:12] terms of spiritual development because [23:13] spiritual development requires I think [23:17] one important aspect I'll say is [23:19] learning to stabilize your consciousness [23:22] not to not in a rigid in a rigid way [23:25] very flexible but uh you may you need to [23:28] be able to stabilize attention in order [23:30] to expand attention otherwise it's just [23:32] jumping all over the place you know so [23:35] this on the on a practical level tech [23:38] the technology today uh is a brah in [23:42] many ways but we have to learn to handle [23:44] it and handle ourselves in it more [23:46] effectively um to uh learn how to [23:50] concentrate learn how to stabilize [23:52] attention [23:55] that's on a practical level on a on a [23:56] theoretical level [23:59] the there are certain habits of thought [24:01] that we have that we should pay [24:03] attention to it's an issue I'm I'm [24:05] working on right now um you know [24:09] tendencies this is something that's [24:11] being that's explored in the [24:13] phenomenological philosophic tradition [24:16] of the 20th 21st centuries [24:19] leinas you know sartra um the [24:23] uh [24:25] we have to be aware of ways in which we [24:27] use consciousness uh that that negates [24:31] reality rather than affirms it uh and [24:34] it's a um I just I just put this out [24:37] there. I mean, learning watching the way [24:39] that in which we think, ways in which we [24:41] which we conceptualize things often uh [24:44] um by defining them, negating them in [24:47] relationship to other things. We have to [24:49] learn how to um cultivate um more [24:54] expansive posit positivity in thinking [24:57] uh and watch out for those places where [25:00] we we're we're introducing negation and [25:02] nullity into the ways in which we [25:04] relate. So, so this uh affects the way [25:08] in which we approach knowledge uh and [25:10] what what knowing means um what does it [25:13] mean to know to understand um you know [25:16] it the when we create um separating [25:20] categories we also have to understand [25:21] how things fit together anyway that [25:23] that's on a more theoretical level [25:26] >> the practical level [25:27] >> practical yeah [25:28] >> so why did God create the world [25:32] >> you know the Ramba warns us in muim to [25:36] be careful about that question. I mean [25:38] with all due respect you know it's a [25:39] great question because you know and [25:41] you'll see you know that you know some [25:45] some you know mubalim also you know make [25:48] suggestions about why god created the [25:50] world and the bra warns us we do not [25:53] know and it's important to acknowledge [25:55] we don't know uh he says the world is [25:58] not created for human beings said it's [26:01] very amazing statement it's in part [26:03] three like chapter [26:06] like 13 or something like that part [26:08] three might guide of the perplexed [26:11] um says every being in the world was [26:14] created for itself. God creates if it [26:16] exists God created because God wants [26:18] that being the world is not created for [26:21] human being. We are created because God [26:23] created us for whatever God's reason. Um [26:26] we could try to frame this uh but any [26:29] kind of framing that we would do we're [26:30] just it's reduction reductive. we're [26:33] just reducing this incredible mysterious [26:36] world to some small concept that now [26:39] we're you know feel comfortable that we [26:40] know where the world exists. So the we [26:43] don't know. I think it's really [26:45] important to be honest about that. Uh, [26:47] I'll just say though that [26:50] um through most of the Zohar um the the [26:55] the recurrent theme is um uh that the [27:01] world is [27:04] and the the the [27:06] goal of humanity is to uh to know uh [27:10] cavode [27:12] the cavode. Um now this is the cavode is [27:16] God's manifestation. [27:19] God's manifesting. Now God is hidden. Um [27:23] but actually God is manifest in plain [27:26] sight. God is in sof the infinite. God [27:29] is infinitely manifest but we're not [27:33] aware of it. We miss it all the time. I [27:35] mean God is absolute. We are infinitely [27:39] here. And I get we are not we're not [27:43] just here. We are infinitely here. Not [27:45] not here forever but so absolutely [27:48] infinitely here. That is mindblowing if [27:50] we could get that. And that and that we [27:52] are infinitely here is because God is [27:56] infinite absolute one. [28:00] But we miss it all the time. Uh it's too [28:04] much for us. Uh there's this this one of [28:07] favorite little vignettes in the Gamora [28:10] Gammoran [28:12] um and Kanya the great uh has a series [28:17] of um interviews with Hadrien [28:21] before Hadrien uh really became the evil [28:25] uh you know the evil oppressor of the [28:28] Jews destroyer uh Rabos Yeshua was [28:31] trying to you know he was great leader [28:34] um uh also a politician, a diplomat I [28:38] say trying to you know kind of keep [28:41] things keep things smooth with Hrien. So [28:43] Hrien at one point asks him um show me [28:47] your god. Hrien's an idoltor and Judaism [28:51] is a great challenge to idolatry and he [28:53] knows you know we we you can't show God. [28:59] So, uh, you know, Rivoshua [29:03] says, "Hadri, I can't show you God. You [29:06] know, God's not an idol. God's not." He [29:08] says, "I insist," says Hrien. "I [29:10] insist." [29:12] So, Rabos Yeshua says, takes him out [29:15] outside in Tufatamuz. We're almost in [29:18] that now in in the height of the summer, [29:21] you know, on a hot sunny day and tells [29:24] Hrien, "Look at the sun directly." And [29:27] Hrien says, "I can't." [29:30] And sure says, "The sun is just a [29:33] creation of God." Just the creation of [29:36] God. And you say you can't look at it. [29:38] All the more so you can't God is hiding [29:42] in plain sight. You can't your mind [29:44] can't grasp God. And the the this is a [29:47] major theme in you know Jewish mysticism [29:50] and [29:51] certainly in Kabala [29:54] in the Torah. You know God can you God [29:56] says to motion you a human being cannot [29:58] see me and live. Uh God is [30:02] overwhelmingly manifest [30:05] but we can't you know something about [30:08] our minds can't can't grasp that that's [30:11] not possible. [30:12] >> So do we have free will in this whole [30:13] process? Does does free will exist and [30:16] if so what is it? [30:18] >> Yeah you know [30:20] I think free will is highly overrated. [30:23] You know certainly the you know the [30:25] history of the 20th century psychology [30:28] shows that's highly overrated but we do [30:30] have a flexibility of will and that's [30:32] very important. [30:34] Um you know most of the for most of us [30:36] free will is binary you know choose this [30:38] choose that you know um but it no the [30:41] essence of that free will is a [30:42] flexibility [30:44] uh that we have to make choices to be [30:47] responsible [30:49] you know the um [30:52] uh this is [30:55] in big [30:59] has amazing statement in um parla [31:04] says um [31:06] says God does not want us to be stuck in [31:09] one quality and one derek and one way of [31:12] doing things all the time and we think [31:14] of being consistent that's really how we [31:16] think of that certainly in Torah terms [31:18] of being consistent and regular no says [31:20] God does not want us to be stuck in one [31:23] way of being [31:25] God wants us to be flexible [31:27] to follow with the will of God wherever [31:31] it takes us and so we need to be [31:33] flexible and sometimes it's one quality [31:34] and sometimes it's another quality and [31:36] it's situational and you have to be [31:38] responsive to follow the will of God [31:40] wherever that leads you know so there's [31:43] that great passage in um [31:47] uh Elawa Nave [31:50] Akab is searching for Ela Ni to kill [31:52] >> Elijah the prophet [31:53] >> yeah Elijah the prophet and and uh uh [31:56] his one of Akav the wicked king Akav has [32:00] a a servant called the vaja who secretly [32:03] is a a supporter of Elon Num and reveres [32:06] him and supporter of the of the of the [32:08] Naveim of the prophets. Uh but Avaj is a [32:12] servant of the king. So Akav says I'm [32:15] going to s let's search for Elio Nave [32:17] I'm going to go one direction you go to [32:18] the other direction. So Aaja is on the [32:20] road and and he runs into Elio and Navi [32:22] and Elio says to him um tell Akav going [32:26] to meet him bring bring his uh prophets [32:30] of the Bahal you know the the idolattors [32:32] to Har Car Carmel and this is the the [32:34] run up to the the showdown at at Mount [32:36] Carmel. Uh, and Oaja says, [32:42] "You're going to kill me because I'm [32:44] going to say to you're going to meet him [32:46] at Caramel and you know the uh uh item [32:52] is uh um you the spirit of God will [32:57] carry you off uh elo [33:01] to a place that I don't know and you [33:03] know and I'll you know I'll never be [33:04] able to to find you. you're you're [33:06] always off here and there and here and [33:07] there. That's a model. You know, it [33:09] sounds like he's being inconsistent. No, [33:10] that's a model for the flexibility that [33:13] we need. Uh this the free will that we [33:15] need to have that the um to follow its [33:19] own hashem the will of God wherever it [33:21] leads us. Uh that's that's the vision. [33:24] So free will is for the sake of [33:26] responsibility. Flexibility for the sake [33:28] of responsibility. [33:29] >> So what do you think of when you think [33:30] of Mashiach the Messiah? [33:33] uh take my monities the Rambam's [33:35] approach he's a human being but he has [33:40] the has full development of all [33:43] potentialities of human consciousness [33:45] and that by the way is amazing amazing [33:48] >> what does that mean [33:52] he he's operating in this world and in [33:56] all worlds in you know able to connect [33:59] on emp empathic levels telepathic levels [34:03] with other human beings. Uh [34:05] extraordinary perception um in in many [34:09] different levels uh visual perception, [34:11] auditory perception. He's has a [34:14] prophetic consciousness, but he's a [34:16] human being. He is not magical. He will [34:19] not solve all of our personal problems. [34:22] uh his goal you know his his task as the [34:25] Rambam says you know is uh to bring [34:28] political peace to the world so that if [34:31] the world is in peace we can all move on [34:33] to develop ourselves ethically and [34:35] spiritually that's the Msiah and uh I [34:38] think sometimes inordinate focus is [34:41] placed on the concept of the Messiah um [34:46] as as if you know he will solve all your [34:48] personal problems no you it'll just give [34:51] you respit from all the the other you [34:53] know you know oppressive or distracting [34:56] issues so that you can really work on uh [34:59] a deeper awareness and deeper ethical [35:01] and spiritual maturity. [35:03] >> So that happens in a messianic era so to [35:05] speak. Yeah. [35:06] >> Is the state of Israel part of the final [35:07] redemption? [35:10] >> I feel so what can I say? I I don't know [35:12] these things but um this is [35:14] extraordinary to be here in Erit Israel [35:16] is amazing. Um we one way or another we [35:21] need this process that we're going [35:23] through. It's messy. Um we're you know [35:26] we're bringing all that we have [35:29] experienced you know o over the the [35:32] centuries of exile in in with us things [35:35] we've learned great things also some bad [35:37] habits. Um we're trying to create a just [35:41] society. We're harassed horrifically [35:44] from all roundabout. Um but [35:48] we have that honesty, we have that good [35:50] heart, we have that compassion. Um and [35:53] you know it's [35:55] in that sense I I do feel that this we [35:58] need this this process we need to it the [36:03] the the mentality of galut of of exile [36:06] is a stuck mentality. And it's it's [36:10] really [36:13] we need the experiences that we are [36:15] going through now in terms of political [36:16] power in terms of social justice in [36:19] terms of all all of these issues. We [36:22] need to work these out. Uh so in this in [36:25] this I I'm uh say one of my all-time [36:28] great you know rabbitic heroes is cook [36:32] uh on this and I think his vision is [36:34] just right on target with this. Yeah. [36:36] So, what is the greatest challenge [36:37] facing the world today? While we're [36:39] trying to work this all out, what are [36:40] one of those challenges we need to work [36:42] out? [36:44] >> There's so many. [36:46] >> Pick one. [36:47] >> Oh my god. [36:53] Greatest challenge in the world today. [36:55] or one of [36:58] >> I mean just you know [37:02] people learning to listen to each other [37:04] to respect each other um you know and uh [37:09] within any given society across [37:11] societies you know the world just open [37:14] our hearts to each other learn to listen [37:17] you know we we this is an incredible [37:19] world it's so beautiful it's so [37:22] miraculous uh imagine You know, I mean, [37:26] I do some, you know, interfaith work. I [37:28] have done for many years. Uh, and you [37:30] know, when you meet people of good heart [37:32] and good will and you say, "We've got so [37:34] much that we can share together and the [37:36] differences we can respect also." Um, [37:39] just listen, just open your heart. I [37:41] mean, that's that's what I think we need [37:44] to do. What what the challenges are that [37:45] keep us from that, well, whatever. I [37:47] mean it's a you know there's there's [37:49] many illusions and falsehoods and you [37:51] know power issues and uh of all kinds [37:54] but I think that that's that that [37:58] learning to listen with an open heart [37:59] and with respect to each other [38:01] >> and how has modernity changed to [38:03] mysticism. [38:06] How interesting [38:14] interesting question. I mean you know [38:15] it's [38:17] in in some ways uh you know you can [38:20] approach this on the [38:22] um the academic level. I mean the um [38:28] you know [38:33] my my academic field is you know history [38:35] of of kabala Jewish mysticism in general [38:40] uh and and certainly the tools that [38:41] we've that we have in modernity you know [38:43] of the of um historical accuracy and um [38:48] understanding uh [38:52] you know understanding development [38:55] of of movements in historical context. [38:58] Uh I think that's that's helped a lot. [39:00] Um [39:02] you know, modernity gets a bad rap for [39:05] some good reasons. uh but uh in in in [39:10] the service of truth and honesty um be [39:14] becoming more historically aware I think [39:17] uh has helped me a lot uh in terms of [39:19] you know understanding you know how to [39:21] read a mubal from the 13th century and [39:23] how to read a mubal from the 16th [39:25] century how to read a you know an ado [39:28] from the you know 18th the 19th century [39:32] um or how to go back to uh you know the [39:36] the [39:37] Marava mystics or the mystics uh [39:40] understanding the context uh the [39:43] historical context is important. I think [39:44] that's one of the things that modernity [39:46] gets. I mean modernity this this [39:49] historical vision was you saw it already [39:51] developing in the medieval period the [39:52] Ramban in his commentaries often uh uh [39:56] has a a developing historical sense of [39:59] context uh and that's very important. [40:01] without that um Jewish mysticism [40:06] can can sometimes devolve into the [40:09] magical um develop into fantasy. Uh and [40:12] I think it's uh that that's the one one [40:16] of the positive aspects of modernity is [40:18] that that sense of historicity. [40:20] >> So what's the difference between Jewish [40:22] mysticism and other schools of thought [40:24] other mysticisms out there other [40:25] religions that have mystical traditions? [40:28] >> Yeah. Um [40:32] let's let you know let's focus on what I [40:35] think from for most Jews is the um [40:39] distinction between Judaism and the [40:42] Asian religions because most Jew Jews [40:45] are not attracted to Christianity to [40:46] Islam. uh but there has been great [40:48] attraction to certain um the east [40:51] >> ab sort of sanitized versions of [40:53] Buddhism and even Hinduism but let's say [40:56] Buddhism [40:57] um the [41:00] there are certain commonalities [41:02] you know I mean kabala is a science of [41:05] consciousness [41:07] um we have a rich meditation tradition [41:10] of all kinds of meditation practices the [41:13] um and they are all profound and [41:16] Buddhism [41:17] Hinduism, Buddhism has, you know, a rich [41:20] development in all of its forms of of [41:21] meditation practice. That's the very [41:23] core of Buddhism. And it's been very [41:24] very attractive to to Jews, particularly [41:27] when it's sanitized from the uh you know [41:30] the idolatrous aspects which still creep [41:33] in even though it's considered itself an [41:36] atheistic religion on a folk level. It [41:39] has it has it's full of its idolatries. [41:42] the the major difference I will say I'll [41:45] just focus on one issue [41:48] the vision of enlightenment or for usat [41:52] uh what I know of Buddhism I'm not the [41:55] I'm not a scholar of Buddhism but I've [41:57] certainly you know learned some [41:59] comparative religion uh the [42:02] enlightenment experiences and it's not [42:04] just one experience it's it develops in [42:07] many different but it's it's really [42:09] focused on consciousness becoming in [42:12] phase with itself. [42:14] And when consciousness is in phase with [42:16] itself, uh um [42:20] the state of eternity uh it's a state in [42:24] which um you know you're you're you feel [42:28] at one with all. Um and that's [42:31] wonderful. Uh it's it can be quite [42:33] blissful. It's quite you know it's it's [42:36] a blissful experience when consciousness [42:38] is in in flows in tune with itself. [42:42] so blissful that you can get stuck in [42:44] that. Um [42:49] it's described by Raban the Rambam by [42:54] others uh is you know you attain that [42:59] level of awareness in which [43:02] consciousness is in phase with itself [43:04] and fully fully developed and expansive. [43:07] But then goes one further to prophetic [43:10] consciousness which is now in this state [43:14] of awareness relating to Hashem itself [43:18] relating to Hashem as Hashem to God as [43:20] God reveals Godself. Uh and that's a [43:24] further step. Um, it's it's it's the [43:28] state of, you know, of fully realized [43:31] consciousness and then moving it past [43:34] itself, transcending that, opening that [43:36] beyond. Um, I'm not saying that [43:41] there very well might be, you know, [43:42] Buddhist practitioners that achieve [43:45] other states that come towards that. [43:47] They don't really, that's not the way [43:48] they describe it. But for us it's [43:51] prophetic enlightenment, prophetic [43:53] consciousness in which now not only can [43:56] I talk to God like in but God talks to [44:01] us and we can have you know a a real [44:04] communing uh you know it's extraordinary [44:07] consciousness I mean that's amazing [44:09] right and so prophetic consciousness is [44:11] the big difference um and I think that's [44:16] important and it um yeah can I say as [44:19] much as I appreciate uh um the [44:21] contributions of other religions and [44:22] they're fine unto themselves. But this [44:25] is what you know the the ultimate full [44:27] realization of humanity is about. [44:29] >> Does one need to be religious to study [44:31] Jewish mysticism? [44:36] >> I think so. I mean I think you need [44:40] certainly our tradition says so. Um it's [44:43] uh [44:43] >> why is that [44:44] >> there are the the [44:49] the moral discipline, the intellectual [44:52] discipline, um the the the heart [44:57] discipline, the the sense of um the de [45:01] let's call it the devotional discipline. [45:03] All of these are really important [45:05] aspects of u uh you know a a fully [45:09] developed mystical life. Um I I I think [45:14] without without those disciplines uh [45:16] mysticism can can become very [45:20] self-absorbed. [45:21] Um and the very essence of the Torah [45:26] vision is opposite [45:27] >> against opposite. It's notificational. [45:31] >> It's nullificational right. It's it's [45:33] and it's and not just pit but it's it's [45:35] moving towards others you know here I [45:36] think again that the thought of Emanuel [45:38] Levas really important he was a a Torah [45:41] Jew I mean he's in and greatest [45:43] philosopher of the 20th century in my [45:44] opinion and many [45:47] uh and it's that that full development [45:50] of human being in uh in our connection [45:53] with others and with the ultimate other [45:55] he's you know is very clear about that [45:58] that's what it's about and for that you [46:00] need the the devotional [46:02] discipline of of a religious life. [46:06] >> So, can it actually be dangerous? Can [46:07] dish mysticism be dangerous? [46:09] >> Oh, we're told yes. You know, you know [46:12] the um cautionary tale in the Goriga, [46:16] the Arbash and Nick of the Parardes, you [46:18] know, the four great rabbis who entered [46:20] the mystical [46:21] >> orchard, [46:22] >> you know, orchard and uh only one Rabaka [46:26] came out whole and he came out. he had [46:28] to you know and it's important to you [46:30] know to not only to to be in that state [46:34] but also to to leave that state and to [46:36] be in the world with others. Um there [46:39] are accounts of you know um great you [46:44] know Jewish mystics, cabalists who um uh [46:48] seem to have gone a bit off the rails. [46:49] Um Rababa Mabalafia one of the great [46:53] extraordinary individual but uh his his [46:56] meditation method is very demanding uh [46:59] and can be mentally destabilizing. Um [47:02] it's and it happens. In fact, his [47:04] students even uh talk about that as [47:06] well. And it seems that he um got [47:10] destabilized at a certain point in his [47:11] life. Uh [47:12] >> you know, went into a kind of a saw [47:15] himself as messianic and came out of it. [47:17] But uh so yes, the the meditation [47:22] practices that we have are very [47:23] rigorous. They're not for everybody. Uh [47:25] they should be done in a graded way, [47:26] step by step. Um uh because in all [47:30] meditation you're pushing to the edge of [47:32] sanity uh and you have to know how to [47:34] step back from that edge. But yeah so [47:37] has this had an influence or your study [47:39] in Jewish mysticism on practical [47:41] relationships in your own life with your [47:43] spouse with your children with your [47:45] grandchildren with your students um with [47:48] broader society with your friends and if [47:50] so can you give one example that shows [47:52] that expressed? [47:54] Yeah. I mean, first of all, that's [47:56] really such an important point. I mean, [47:58] it [48:01] mysticism gets a bit of a bad rap both [48:03] in in general and in Jewish context of [48:06] being self-absorbed and self-focused. [48:08] Um, and mystics often portrayed as Luft [48:11] mentioned, you know, as airheads that [48:13] are, you know, in some other world. It's [48:15] really important to be, you know, in [48:17] this world. And if if your your if your [48:20] divine awareness, your direct awareness [48:22] of divine reality doesn't um issue in [48:26] ethical practice and greater compassion [48:31] and greater care for others, it's not [48:33] worth anything. You know, my monies at [48:35] the end of the very end last chapter of [48:38] his great, you know, guide of the [48:40] perplexed, he lays it out. He says [48:43] the basically the goal of human life is [48:46] to come to be aware of the reality of [48:48] God through understanding the reality of [48:50] the world. important scientifically [48:54] uh and with that sense of the reality of [48:56] God to emulate God's qualities where but [48:59] in the image of God uh to emulate God's [49:02] qualities uh the the ones that he [49:06] mentions from a verse from Yamyahu [49:12] said [49:14] love judgment and righteousness you know [49:18] but those are symbolic of all of the the [49:21] quality qualities that God wants to then [49:24] you know instantiate not just [49:26] instantiate those qualities in our in [49:29] our everyday life. That's what it's [49:30] about. [49:31] >> So is there a practical example with [49:34] relationship with yourself or with [49:35] others that you see this applied? Well, [49:38] you know, you I I hope it's so in, you [49:43] know, in uh in everything that I do and [49:45] not just in in uh in certain moments, [49:47] but the um you know, I was the RV of of [49:51] a Kila, the rabbi of a of a [49:54] congregation, the young Israel, Sharon, [49:56] the Orthodox congregation in Sharon, [49:58] Massachusetts for 32 years. Uh it's [50:01] great place, still wonderful, wonderful [50:04] kila. Um [50:07] and um [50:09] the what I tried to to cultivate was a [50:13] um a sense of [50:16] um [50:18] awareness of every one of my congregants [50:22] uh on their own terms. [50:24] um to you know put put myself aside a [50:29] bit uh to to see each of one each of [50:31] them in their own terms to try to be [50:34] even sometimes telepathically sensitive [50:36] certainly empathically sensitive uh to [50:38] what's going on in their lives. um I'm [50:41] not wasn't always successful in you know [50:43] in reading it right but um that's you [50:46] know I I did feel that my um let's say [50:51] my medit meditative practice [50:53] contemplative practice in general was [50:55] towards becoming more sensitive to um [50:58] others in um empathetic and even [51:01] telepathic ways [51:02] >> beautiful and finally we've discussed so [51:04] many different questions um and how [51:07] teachings relate to it I'd love to just [51:09] invite you to share a teaching [51:10] What is one idea that is powerful, [51:12] pertinent that you carry with you um [51:15] among all the ones that you have that [51:17] you can share with us to conclude this [51:18] great conversation? [51:21] >> One of my favorite Okay. One of my [51:23] favorite um this is from Colonus Kstein [51:29] the [51:31] um [51:34] par [51:37] is very appropriate to this [51:39] conversation. Uh he's he's interpreting [51:42] the verse. [51:46] Okay. Uh the [51:48] >> how would you translate that? [51:49] >> The secret of God is for those who [51:51] revere him. Yeah, [51:52] >> the secret of God is uh and he starts [51:56] out he says you know many people think [51:58] that the secret of God so is kabaha they [52:03] think it's you know the the zohar they [52:06] think it's the uh the mysticism of the [52:08] arizal he mentions you know you know [52:11] it's [52:14] he says that's not that's not sashem [52:17] that's not the the secret of god you [52:20] know because you can learn kabala It's [52:22] it's actually a very rational system. Um [52:25] you can learn the kabal the arizal you [52:27] know just put your mind to it and it's [52:29] it's highly systematic and you can learn [52:31] it quite effectively. Now he says what's [52:34] what is the real sod hashem the secret [52:37] of god he says that's the essence of god [52:43] that every one of us is trying to reach [52:45] within ourselves our our understanding [52:48] of the reality of god [52:50] and the way that you know each one of us [52:54] connects with the reality of god that is [52:57] a real secret because that in the in [52:59] your deepest you know holy of holies [53:02] heart of hearts [53:04] You can't communicate to someone else [53:05] and that's a secret. [53:07] Each one of us does the best we can to [53:09] understand the real how the reality of [53:12] God in our lives and you just can't get [53:15] across to others [53:18] which then it sort of raises the [53:20] question well then then what are we [53:21] doing you know with uh Cababala and [53:23] Kasidude in which we're trying to do [53:25] this or um the 1840 project you know and [53:29] you know what are we what are we working [53:31] on here you know so um you know [53:36] I would say it this way that you know [53:38] yes I I cannot you know express this you [53:43] know this deepest sense of God and you [53:46] know whatever he asked me about and you [53:48] know uh a uh an experience that I had [53:52] you know years back that started me off [53:55] the uh I had an experience a special [53:58] experience of God in that I didn't can't [53:59] mention it um [54:02] I can't explain that it's not possible [54:04] it's just not possible Um [54:07] >> but you experienced it. [54:08] >> But experienced what I experienced. [54:10] >> Yeah. [54:10] >> The um [54:15] >> and yet we can there is something we can [54:17] share here. In other words, each of us [54:19] is trying our best to have this [54:21] experience of the reality of God and the [54:23] reality of of the world and to [54:25] understand this uh and so we can compare [54:28] notes and that's what our mystical [54:30] traditions are. It's the records of [54:32] these experiences. So we can share [54:34] notes. We can encourage each other. Um [54:37] we can even you know there are ways of [54:39] deeply sharing sometimes not getting the [54:41] ess you know the to the core of each [54:44] other's sense of God but um you know [54:47] encouraging each other to to to get [54:48] closer and closer and giving each other [54:50] hints. Um this is something that [54:53] mentions that um [54:56] says you know in in the vision of um [55:00] that we on on Shivot [55:03] um there's an a an expanse of awesome [55:08] ice and then there's a kiss a throne. [55:11] Okay. And on the throne is the image as [55:14] it were of the likeness as it were of [55:16] the semblance of a Adam a man on the [55:19] throne. [55:20] says that Adam is not God. [55:23] He says that Adam is the uh [55:28] call nishmote Israel [55:32] uh the to the total collective [55:35] consciousness of [55:37] Israel. [55:38] >> Okay. The so it's our you know there is [55:42] a collective consciousness. I mean the [55:45] fact that you and I are sitting here and [55:47] um pretend that we understand each other [55:49] is because we share consciousness uh on [55:53] this level and so there is a way in [55:55] which we do share consciousness um and [55:59] in that sense we can sort of communicate [56:02] so you know that secret of God and at [56:04] least we can encourage each other in [56:06] this and I think that's the you know for [56:08] me that's as a someone who is involved [56:10] in learning and teaching um that's a [56:13] something And I always try to remember [56:15] you know from the oresh [56:18] everyone has their inner experience but [56:20] we can help each other encourage each [56:22] other share to the extent we can share [56:24] on our way towards more deeply [56:26] understanding God. [56:26] >> Well Rabbi Dr. May I appreciate you [56:28] sharing so much through this [56:30] conversation through your teachings [56:32] through the contemplative society that [56:33] you're building um and through [56:35] everything you do and we give you a [56:37] blessing that you continue to do that to [56:39] access it and help others access in that [56:41] process. Oh, thank thank you very much [56:43] for that. [56:44] >> Thank you very much.
