Transcript [00:12] Hi friends and welcome to the 1840 [00:14] podcast where each month we explore a [00:16] different topic balancing modern [00:18] sensibilities with traditional [00:19] sensitivities to give you new approaches [00:22] to timeless Jewish ideas. I'm your host [00:25] David Bashkin and today we are asking [00:28] the question, how do you become a Jewish [00:32] optimist? [00:33] This podcast is part of a larger [00:35] exploration of those big juicy Jewish [00:39] ideas. So be sure to check out 1840.org. [00:42] That's 18fty.org [00:44] where you can also find videos, [00:46] articles, recommended readings, and [00:48] weekly emails. I think I was on Twitter [00:51] too much one day. I was go scrolling [00:54] through videos and people were beginning [00:56] to think about Israeli elections and I [01:00] saw the way people were talking to one [01:02] another and I had this like very painful [01:06] feeling. you know, post October 7th, the [01:10] Jewish people had this moment where we [01:11] all came together. And what really [01:14] saddened me was the fact that it felt [01:16] that when I looked at the landscape of [01:18] what we of what our vision was, and when [01:22] I say our, I mean the Jewish people, for [01:24] the state of Israel, it felt like every [01:28] group's vision was deliberately [01:32] constructed to exclude, respond, [01:35] sequester [01:37] a different group uh in Israel and I'm [01:41] not Israeli so I don't necessarily vote [01:44] but watching this it can contaminate [01:48] your soul like I felt it like I felt the [01:52] pain the frustration the anger the [01:55] disappointment just being hurled in all [01:58] different ways a lot of times the mud [02:00] hits you in the face and that's why I [02:04] decided to have today's episode. [02:07] Somebody who you may already be familiar [02:08] with. He's been a guest on 1840 and I [02:11] really consider it one of the great [02:12] privileges of my life to consider this [02:14] person of my closest friends in the [02:16] world and that is Revjuda Michelle. If [02:20] you've ever had the opportunity to sit [02:21] with RJ Judah, uh you will immediately [02:25] experience a very rare type of [02:27] sincerity, a very rare type of [02:31] commitment to really the entirety of the [02:34] Jewish people and R. Judah was in town [02:38] to plug his most recent book. He has [02:41] written a series of books uh under the [02:43] title Baderak. Uh there's the Baderak [02:46] original. There's the Baderak on the [02:48] para. There's a bad hagada more bad to [02:51] coming. And he and I have been talking [02:53] writing for many, many years together. I [02:55] also, by the way, just came out with a [02:57] book. It's behind me. You might even be [02:59] able to see it in the shot. Um, buy all [03:03] our books. Buy multiple copies. [03:05] But, you know, I reached out to Rebjudah [03:08] and said, you know, instead of just [03:09] talking about our books, which is, you [03:11] know, something that we discussed, I [03:13] want to talk about something else. And [03:15] that is today's conversation where I ask [03:17] from Judah, how do you remain so [03:20] optimistic about the Jewish people? How [03:22] do you remain so closely connected and [03:25] integrated to so many different Jewish [03:27] communities, so many forms of different [03:29] communities in the Jewish world? And you [03:32] don't seem to get that frustration, that [03:34] anger, that disappointment. How do you [03:37] get there? Because this is a skill that [03:39] I think the Jewish people need at this [03:41] moment. This is a perspective. This is a [03:44] vision. This is a disposition, a a [03:47] relationship towards the Jewish people [03:48] that every Jew needs to figure out for [03:50] themselves. And I can think of no better [03:53] guide than of Judah Michelle to teach us [03:56] a little bit of how do you become a [03:59] Jewish optimist. [04:06] It is really a pleasure [04:08] to be sitting here with a with a dear [04:10] friend, but with a very clear purpose of [04:12] what I want to talk to you about. [04:15] You know, I uh I spend too much time on [04:19] social media, but I don't know that I [04:20] could blame social media on this one [04:23] where I had a very distinct feeling two [04:25] weeks ago when people were talking and [04:28] arguing about what's happening in [04:31] Israel. there elections now and there's [04:33] like something very like practical [04:35] happening like what what direction are [04:37] we going in and I noticed that every [04:42] competing vision related to Eric Israel [04:44] seems to be constructed to exclude or [04:48] respond to a different demographic of [04:50] the Jewish people and it's a tough spot [04:53] to be in if you want to be a Clusel [04:57] optimist if you want to remain positive [05:00] about where the Jewish people are cuz [05:04] >> Yeah. Cuz like you see the how mutually [05:06] exclusive the visions are. You see like [05:09] if if we're going to go this way that [05:10] means we're not going we're going the [05:13] opposite of where you're going. The [05:15] reason why is like to me I I don't care [05:17] much for politics. Not American or [05:19] Israeli, but I care deeply about the [05:22] Jewish people. And I noticed myself, I [05:25] remember at night getting frustrated, [05:27] I'll say it openly, at at at some [05:29] aspects of the yeshiva world where I [05:31] felt like, how come we haven't [05:33] articulated a clearer vision of what [05:35] we're doing with the state? I get [05:37] frustrated at aspects of the [05:41] religious Zionist world of like [05:43] understanding [05:45] culturally [05:46] the need to preserve aidic community in [05:50] Israel to preserve [05:52] every community. It brings so much [05:54] flavor like I don't know even where I [05:57] align and maybe that's not important. [05:59] maybe let go and say, "Okay, like I I'm [06:01] sitting on an island." But when it [06:03] starts to metastasize and you start to [06:05] get like cynical and you start looking [06:06] at other communities, start looking at [06:08] the rabbis, you know, the, you know, [06:11] fill in the the community. And I [06:14] remember we had a plan to talk about our [06:17] books and there's nothing I love more [06:19] and maybe we'll have two minutes to do [06:21] that than to push product. But it [06:24] bothered me to such an extent of [06:28] how do you remain an optimist, a a [06:30] Jewish people optimist, a Claw Israel [06:33] first optimist in this period? And I was [06:36] thinking the one person who I can tr [06:39] turn to in honesty and have a sincere [06:42] conversation about how this is possible [06:43] is you because aside from the fact that [06:46] you live in Israel and so much of your [06:48] life and every their Torah that you [06:50] share is in love with Claw Israel, [06:53] you you're situated in a place where you [06:55] kind of interact and really build deep [06:58] connections and relationship with [07:00] multiple different communities and it [07:02] never seems to erode that inner her love [07:06] for the Jewish people. So my question to [07:08] you that I want to talk about is how do [07:10] you remain an optimist about where Cla [07:13] Israel and the Jewish people are headed [07:15] when it seems in this moment our visions [07:18] and our what some we call hashkafa our [07:21] worldviews seem to be so mutually [07:23] exclusive. [07:25] >> Wow. Um the first things first I I [07:28] there's a mat there's a prayer that's [07:31] published in some sad called the prayer [07:34] for the prayer of rebell [07:38] who was third generation after the bal [07:42] responsible for the spread of to Poland [07:44] probably the most you know one one of [07:46] the more transformational figures in the [07:49] development of theidic movement and [07:51] rebell's prayer most famously the most [07:54] the often quoted part of his prayer as [07:57] the prayer before the prayer [08:00] is actually asking is verbalizing this [08:02] and saying please Hashem [08:07] asking let allow me the ability to see [08:12] good to find the good points in the [08:14] others. He said there's a lot of [08:15] frustration with this community with [08:17] that community. [08:19] Of course, there's frust meaning that's [08:21] part of life. Frustration and people [08:23] falling short and us not necessarily [08:26] being aligned with with everything that [08:27] everyone else thinks. And but you could [08:30] also say it the other way is that if [08:32] we're able to to open ourselves up and [08:34] to ask help me see good in those places [08:38] then also see frustration. But the [08:40] dialectic is as well. has also [08:42] incredible, you know, values and the [08:44] kurastovos and endearing qualities. And [08:48] I think that [08:50] as you were talking, I was I was in [08:52] Lakewood last night, you know, and I was [08:55] looking around the wedding. I was like I [08:56] was at at a sim and then at a at a [08:58] fabang in a gathering there many people [09:00] that I don't know and all all the rasha [09:04] from there was entire and I had the [09:07] privilege to say hello and say shalom [09:09] and make a little small talk by the tish [09:11] with some of the rashisha there people [09:13] of incredible stature and balm midos and [09:15] and giants in in Torah who I'm certain I [09:20] know for a fact I don't you know that if [09:22] if they were to vote and we were to vote [09:23] we would not be voting for the same And [09:25] if we were to like hang out and talk [09:27] about, you know, some key issues of of [09:31] course, you mentioned the state and army [09:32] and we would not be aligned on those [09:35] things. And there are up close the [09:40] interaction, the privilege of just being [09:42] there, [09:43] there's such such beauty and such grace [09:46] and such grandeur of of Yiddishkai and [09:49] Torah. So that it mitigates a little bit [09:52] some of maybe the darker side or the [09:54] negative side of of people and movements [09:56] and opinions when you're up close and [09:58] personal. Yoseph was only able to be [10:01] sold out by his brothers because there [10:03] was distance and they didn't see him. So [10:06] when you say like how do I, you know, go [10:08] different communities and and overlap, [10:10] it's intentional. I want to know Jews. I [10:13] want to know the different communities. [10:14] I don't want to be vat there. I want to [10:16] give up on so many wonderful parts of [10:18] Kistrael. There's beauty there and [10:20] there's something godly there and [10:21] there's something important there and [10:23] there's something that's that's mine [10:24] there and that's yours there and when we [10:27] bind ourselves and on our mitzvah to [10:30] bashame is it's a real thing it's not [10:32] just a phrase that we're binding [10:35] ourselves the entire Jewish people so [10:37] before even optimism the first thing is [10:39] like it has to be intentional it's not [10:41] like we just wake up and like oh [10:43] everything's fine not everything's fine [10:45] a lot of there's a lot of pain in the [10:47] world and there's a lot [10:48] brokenness in the world. We're still [10:50] coming we're coming out of two off of [10:52] 2,000 years of malus of being in exile [10:56] of suffering and hurt people hurt people [10:58] and traumas passed down generation [11:01] generationally and then there's a [11:02] there's a there's there's ka there's [11:06] jealousy there's tya there's people's [11:08] desires for money and for whatever for [11:10] power and there's people want honor and [11:14] to pick themselves up over other people [11:17] but everyone is like that and every [11:19] movement and every community has that [11:21] aspect. [11:23] If we focus on that, then we'll never be [11:25] interested and we'll we'll always we'll [11:27] shut ourselves off to everyone. But if [11:29] we're able to to instead look for the [11:32] good points [11:34] and uh [11:36] it's a whole different it's a whole [11:38] different experience. doesn't [11:41] cancel out the hardship and the [11:43] difficulties and the disagreements, [11:45] existential disagreements that are [11:46] painful, that are real makus, [11:49] but it does kind of frame them those [11:52] conversations and those disagreements in [11:54] a in a way which is in the context of a [11:56] relationship, a family, somebody who you [11:59] want to feel close to at the end want [12:01] like Hilo and Shami to be able to make [12:03] together and be able to build a society [12:05] together. So it's effortful takes a lot [12:08] of tila [12:08] >> know I mentioned [12:10] you know social media and I would [12:12] include in that like the world of like [12:14] you know WhatsApp and very often like [12:18] clips get passed around and some of the [12:20] clips you know whether it's from a [12:22] politician or whether it's from a a [12:24] rabbi of like extreme like really [12:26] extraordinary stature and very often you [12:29] can hear things where you're you're [12:31] you're getting the opposite of the nuda [12:34] they clip out you You know, the most [12:36] painful, the most jarring. [12:38] >> Why you they used to do that? I I could [12:41] say a name. They used the guys used to [12:42] cut out articles and put on Roy Brown's [12:45] desk to get a rise out of him. [12:47] >> Really? [12:47] >> Yeah. They'd cut out articles, but then [12:49] like highlight the two or three lines [12:51] there. [12:51] >> They still to get a response. [12:55] >> That's for a different It's true. It's [12:58] the same. If it bleeds, it leads. You [13:01] know there's no like Sivan Rahav Mayor, [13:04] one of the great Makad show to Hashem in [13:06] this generation I know you've had on the [13:09] on your on your podcast. She always like [13:11] the headlines are never somebody helped [13:14] an old lady cross the street. Somebody [13:16] helped a Y helped another year with [13:17] their packages. Somebody judged another [13:19] person, [13:22] right? Somebody helped. It doesn't it's [13:24] not interesting. We want to see [13:25] fighting. We want to see blood. We want [13:27] to see, you know, we want to see chaos. [13:30] You want to hear something extreme? [13:32] >> But I'm asking you in real time, meaning [13:35] you can give me one of two answers. You [13:37] could say that you deliberately shelter [13:38] yourself. And you actually I don't I [13:41] don't see this stuff. I try not to I I I [13:43] avoid it like the plague, which which I [13:45] certainly would admire, but it is a [13:47] herculean effort in this world because [13:49] even sometimes [13:51] >> there are news outlets that I don't that [13:52] I that I that there are news outlets [13:54] that I block. [13:54] >> I'll say it more more blunt. A lot of [13:56] the fume outlets are the ones that share [13:58] the guard stuff. guard your eyes. [14:00] There's there's I'm going to say this [14:03] the notion of that we should guard our [14:05] eyes and and and and try for purity. I I [14:09] there's a lot of emphasis on what [14:10] happens with speak openly pornography [14:12] online and things that it's a lot less [14:15] damaging to the soul that that's a lot [14:17] more developmentally you know [14:18] understandable or relatable [14:21] >> there we have a tikon kol we have mikvah [14:23] we have maturation this filter you can't [14:27] the damage that that certain things that [14:29] certain news outlets magnify and and [14:33] accentuate and highlight is infinitely [14:36] more damaging to the soul and to one's [14:38] spiritual uality and one's relationship [14:39] with other Jews and with the rebon [14:41] shalom. It's much harder to uproot that [14:45] you see of police fighting with this [14:47] with extremists and Jews fighting in the [14:49] streets and I I find that that's more [14:52] damaging than anything else that a [14:53] person would search incognito and need [14:55] to sign up for via ma and guard your [14:58] eyes with and have a buddy or whatever [14:59] maybe a filtering system. [15:01] >> It's just it stains yourself. damages a [15:04] person's an inner world and erodess [15:07] sense of faith in people and optimism [15:10] and and it just makes negativity and [15:15] hatred of the Jews. It's just we have to [15:16] guard ourselves from it. We have to [15:18] guard ourselves. I won't I I can't look [15:20] at it. I don't want to see it. I know [15:22] it's happening. I'm stuck in traffic. My [15:24] kids are stuck in I I know it's [15:26] happening. You can't be a healthy person [15:29] in the world and be stuck in that. and [15:31] Kam in a similar way. I I just won't [15:33] read that. There are certain news [15:35] outlets that I've just chosen the last [15:37] couple years especially. [15:38] >> It's like [15:39] >> no I don't it's it's it's not I don't [15:41] want to hear it. I don't want to know [15:42] from it. I I know enough know I've been [15:43] around. I read enough. I hear enough. I [15:45] I it's like all that noise. It's time. [15:48] It's time in general. I I part of like [15:50] the process of becoming healthy and [15:53] optimism is just called being healthy. I [15:55] think having faith in God's plan and and [15:57] and God has faith in humanity and God [15:59] has faith in the world and creates and [16:01] recreates the world. An eluna, right? [16:04] God God creates the world because he [16:06] believes in us and he believes in the [16:07] potential of the world. And when you [16:09] reading these these these or hearing [16:12] these voices that are just deflating and [16:15] and missing that part of it, it's not [16:18] just it's hard to be optimistic. It's [16:19] it's hard to be yid. start to feel joy [16:22] and that we're moving forward. The world [16:25] is moving forward. God's plan is [16:27] unfolding. Nvoua prophecy is getting [16:30] closer to us to being manifest and it's [16:32] happening. But it's not necessarily [16:34] what's being reported in all this this [16:37] poisonous media environment in Israel. [16:39] And here also in the same way whether [16:41] it's on the right or it's on the left, [16:43] there's this defeist negative, you know, [16:46] let's talk about other people. We don't [16:48] we don't Jews don't we don't talk. [16:50] There's more of how we speak about each [16:53] other than there are any other category [16:55] in in Torah. We in the way we speak [16:58] about others and relate to people who [17:00] are different is more than shabas and [17:02] more than kosher. So when we other [17:06] somebody who thinks differently or lives [17:07] differently than us or observes [17:09] differently or than us then we're [17:11] undermining foundational ideas of Torah, [17:13] not to mention [17:15] it's not Jewish. It it it erodess [17:18] Yiddish kite. It's a question of [17:19] optimism and it's it's politics. It it [17:22] it eats away at the kite. It's like the [17:25] it's not to say that everything is hunky [17:27] dory. It's not. We're we're we're at a [17:30] very tenuous [17:32] in history. [17:34] But said the main thing is [17:38] don't you could be you could be [17:40] concerned but to exacerbate it when you [17:43] watching the news and buying into all [17:45] this and accentuating that which is [17:48] going off the rails and the parts that [17:50] are the ugly parts of what we and others [17:53] do. We just we we we bug ourselves out. [17:56] We create more noise and more tension [17:58] and more fear [18:01] than than than it has to be. Hello does [18:04] my [18:04] which I think a lot about these past [18:06] couple of years especially before social [18:08] media. One of the most painful and [18:12] horrific episodes in Torah probably I [18:15] think the refers to it as like the the [18:19] moment where the most division right [18:21] there was between man and God and then [18:24] between you know between human beings. [18:26] The ultimate moment penultimate moment [18:27] appeared was the selling out of Joseph [18:29] by his brothers Yoseph and in Yoseph. So [18:35] the way that Khazal described it was [18:37] that Yoseph Bakano, [18:40] Yoseph was in his sackcloth in his [18:42] mourning and Yakov his father was in [18:45] mourning in a sackcloth and the brothers [18:47] were mourning and and beating themselves [18:49] up over what had happened and regret [18:51] sack of this crying and mourning and [18:54] regret and this sense of self-loathing [18:56] and just like we realize something [18:58] really like happened here, you know. But [19:01] and and in the midst of all of that [19:06] is [19:08] God is creating or God is like you know [19:10] creating this light of redemption. [19:12] There's something that's emerging from [19:13] that pain and that chaos. There's a [19:15] narrative and then there's a meta [19:17] narrative. So the narrative is like look [19:20] around everything's off the rails. [19:21] Everything's falling apart that the [19:22] symbol of father's love was dipped in [19:24] blood and and they sold him out. And he [19:26] thought maybe his father was in on it. [19:28] Like what do they bring me down to do [19:30] for? Like imagine the loneliness and the [19:31] alienation and like the suffering of [19:33] that story. But that you read that that [19:36] that like [19:36] >> that very moment [19:37] >> that very moment God is creating the [19:39] light of redemption. Osh Mashiach I [19:41] believe that that's what's happening. [19:42] It's emerging from this time whether it [19:45] was the experience of that post October [19:47] 7th when everyone was together. There [19:49] was this that's the real story. That's [19:52] still true. [19:54] That's still true. Our kid kid has a [19:57] play date has a friend over and every [19:58] they play wonderfully shabas for a [20:00] couple hours the magnetiles they're [20:01] playing and then they get into a fight [20:03] at the end [20:04] >> they're like oh he ruined it [20:06] >> the whole day started he ruined it [20:08] >> was a bad play date [20:09] >> bad play date oh well they played [20:11] together beautifully that was the that's [20:12] the real story the real story is love [20:16] each other and the friends and they [20:17] played and they were tired and hungry he [20:20] had to make see whatever he was tired [20:22] hungry the boy little it didn't it [20:24] didn't ruin the play date it's It's part [20:26] of of of a process and it's painful and [20:29] there's heaviness like like there was at [20:32] rese but to to not see that there that [20:36] there's such an awakening of goodness [20:38] and of connectivity [20:40] and that that's the main story and [20:41] people say okay being you know [20:46] and and I I I don't think I really [20:48] believe I believe so much in God's plan. [20:50] I I believe so much in God's people. You [20:52] have two sons-in-law who have who have [20:54] served, right? Um, you're raising a [20:58] family like very proudly and connected [21:01] in Erit Israel, connected to the state [21:03] of Israel. [21:04] And I've always found it very um [21:08] words intriguing, curious. Something [21:10] I've noticed is that your rebi is not a [21:14] part of you know that that streambi is [21:17] like from a real kidic proper classic [21:20] classical classicalic community. And I [21:23] wonder if you could speak a little bit [21:25] or even why you maybe why you don't feel [21:28] it's worth speaking about either one the [21:32] experience of having a rebby. You're [21:35] rebi but you're not in the same communal [21:38] checkbox. [21:40] So and on issues that are fairly serious [21:44] and strong and issues that [21:45] >> deeply related to the nephesh and our [21:48] identity core. [21:49] >> Yeah. quote core identity [21:51] >> core identity [21:52] >> and at the same time he he's your rebi [21:54] and I see the respect and the [21:56] seriousness that you treat your relation [21:58] it's not rebi he's not like you know [22:00] yeah [22:01] >> it's not somebody who you know who [22:02] happens to be a big it's not a rebi [22:04] >> I feel bound to him in nephesh he's [22:06] bound to myself and to my family believe [22:07] in [22:08] >> and that holiness to me is an example of [22:10] something very beautiful which is why I [22:13] want to understand it [22:15] >> which is like yeahbi is classically [22:18] kasidish and like I don't know if you [22:20] avoid this subject. I don't know how [22:22] much you feel comfortable talking about. [22:23] >> You've spoken about it openly as openly [22:26] and as intensely and as deeply as you [22:28] could talk about in every single facet [22:31] and I'll share an anecdote. Um [22:35] it's a number of years ago. It was about [22:36] 15 years ago I'd say and I was I started [22:38] domining there regularly. It was about a [22:40] number of years ago. [22:40] >> Can I say the name of your reb? I don't [22:42] think I mentioned his name, [22:44] you know, and nothing that I say or do [22:47] reflects on his opinions or his way of [22:49] life. You know, that's the that's the uh [22:53] >> Sure. I know. I learned the nearest [22:55] trust me. [22:56] >> No, but I mean that meaning that's the [23:00] boy. The disclaimer is a real one. And [23:02] um but he's very proud of me and even [23:05] though we have very different you know [23:08] was domining there and I was ding there [23:10] every day um in the mornings and I was [23:12] learning at a kabusa there um have [23:15] breakfast I had like a pak sitting at [23:17] breakfast and then I'd sit and then [23:18] afterwards I sat and learned there for a [23:19] while and um it was really the place [23:21] that I found myself in a satil [23:24] specifically the r's independence my his [23:27] independent thinking and I mean he's not [23:30] you know he's sadic He's in he's in the [23:32] realm of being a manic of the Jewish [23:35] people. And uh I I ded there on every [23:38] day and and then it was coming to that [23:40] point in the year where it was like, you [23:42] know, er time, you know, yon [23:46] um Israel's memorial day, you know, I [23:49] ded and then drove straight to her, you [23:53] know, to spend the time in her. [23:55] And then the next day it was hey [23:59] there's different people do different [24:00] things on that day and there's many ways [24:03] to mark [24:05] and to mark the miracle of the promise [24:07] of prophecy of kibbut scalios one of the [24:10] ways which is is is to that day this has [24:13] has real significance historical [24:15] significance and religious significance [24:17] I feel very deeply the religious [24:19] significance of that day you know at [24:21] different points in time have had [24:23] different customs of what to do not [24:25] hollow whatever whatever it is something [24:27] special in the in that day [24:30] >> and um [24:32] very much so not hedging bets like very [24:34] very much so but I had a place of makum [24:36] kav for the first time I really you know [24:37] felt like by choice not as a job or [24:39] whatever this is where I davin this is [24:42] where my talis fill us I went and I left [24:44] my and and I went and I was there and it [24:47] was a regular day like you know a [24:49] regular day there in the in the [24:50] community which is you know pretty It it [24:55] it has a reputation of being a pretty [24:56] extreme. It's they call it the kazba [24:59] karaim. It's right up the steps over [25:01] there. [25:02] >> You know, there's a big spray paint [25:05] instead. Right. [25:07] >> I love it. [25:08] >> And uh you know, I was there that day. I [25:11] wasn't wearing a blue shirt. I was [25:12] wearing a white shirt actually, [25:14] >> ironically. Um [25:17] and um I was diving there and it was a [25:19] regular and you know after [25:23] they feel a poem there's where everyone [25:25] puts their head down and says [25:27] >> now there are I mean is generally not [25:31] said in a day where there's a festival [25:32] where there's a joy it's it's something [25:34] just skip but I was part of the and [25:37] there was [25:40] the 13 attributes of mercy [25:42] >> and and I said because that was part of [25:44] it and my intention was when I go home [25:46] I'll say hello with my family you know [25:48] but then our kids will be back from [25:49] wherever they were the night before at [25:50] the concert [25:51] >> and maybe I'll try to squeeze is at a [25:53] hal in the house together. That's [25:55] generally where things are and the ding [25:58] at at after [26:00] and again he's he's a person who's ding [26:03] on [26:04] Amidas I think probably four hours he's [26:07] in the corner and he davs for hours with [26:09] kavanos he's not like you know he walked [26:11] by me at the end of dining and just [26:15] looked at me and said [26:18] exam was too much so I went like this he [26:22] said [26:23] to [26:26] It's not for you to do on this day. [26:30] Meaning that and that was it. He said it [26:32] just to me and walked out and just [26:34] continue walking out like that that he [26:36] noticed. I didn't want to stick out like [26:39] a stom. I wasn't sure what to do. And [26:41] also like I don't know was saying [26:44] >> I love [26:45] >> there's lots of there's different ways [26:47] than people things [26:49] >> but a real big person has space for [26:51] other people and a real manhig a real [26:54] rebby a real a god a person and someone [26:57] who is taking responsibility for others [26:59] understands that the goal is not for you [27:01] to be a mini me it's not to be me they [27:03] in fact I I believe um that that one of [27:06] the nutas that he sees in me one of the [27:09] is that think and have changed and [27:12] change and reconsider and consider and [27:13] reconsider and fight through a lot of [27:15] things. The I had for all those years [27:16] was a very close friend. When I went [27:19] home to say hal with my family, he went [27:21] home to his house and said the Ramban's [27:24] kina, the rabban's lament over the [27:25] destruction of the temple on the 5th of [27:27] year because that's tradition that he [27:29] had from his father growing up and told [27:31] the sarin and me and he's a dear friend [27:33] who we learned Torah with. We I learned [27:35] Torah with him more seriously than I've [27:36] ever learned Torah with anybody and I [27:39] love him very much and we disagree on on [27:41] these things deeply. But like there are [27:44] many other facets to our life and um [27:48] there was a little bit of a sense of [27:49] distance and disappointment not going to [27:51] lie after October 7th painfully so [27:55] and it was hard for me to go sometimes. [27:57] I just felt like you're just not with [28:00] what's happening here. We're just [28:02] experiencing this too differently. But [28:04] not my rebi Kuger. He would he would [28:06] email it. He he was so deeply connected [28:08] and so deeply involved and engaged not [28:11] in the way that that that I or you or [28:14] most people listening to this were with [28:16] their activism and the rallies and the [28:18] flags and the this and the that and [28:19] baking for soldiers, but fighting the [28:21] war and participating in a way which was [28:23] kesh kadashim. If we're going to only be [28:26] able to learn from and learn with and be [28:29] connected to those who are, you know, [28:31] lock, stock, and barrel. Exactly. On on, [28:33] you know, our talking points of our [28:35] specific political part is going to be [28:36] very lonely and we're not going to get [28:38] out of this mess. the more the older I [28:40] get and the more time I spend um with [28:43] him, the more he's modeling the I [28:46] believe the way that you just a person [28:48] can have their opinions and have their [28:49] strong opinions and and the the greatest [28:51] way to really you know I guess the [28:54] litmus test or how comfortable and [28:55] confident one is in their opinions if [28:57] you're okay that other people have other [28:58] opinions and other ways of doing things. [29:00] You know there's a a beautiful tu chuva [29:04] like a responsa that was written by Rev [29:06] Manasha Klene and it is in response to [29:11] something that the moonacherbi wrote. [29:14] The moonacherbi had very harsh words. [29:19] >> Yeah, exactly. Very he was a zealot, [29:21] very strong and very harsh words for [29:24] those who you know weren't um observant [29:27] or right. So Raanasha Klein has a [29:31] response to this. The way he writes it [29:33] is very interesting. He's talking about [29:35] his own relationship to loving Jews. And [29:38] he says it's a very notreic way to write [29:41] it. So I don't think it's prefuncter. He [29:43] writes harbos. [29:57] I think that's [29:58] >> shared that with me one time. Yeah, I [29:59] cherish that. Chuva, [30:01] >> that line always meant a lot to me [30:02] because it was a rabbi admitting this [30:05] did not come easy to me. I had to work [30:07] at this meaning what your first point [30:10] which is that optimism like it requires [30:13] work. [30:14] >> And I'm curious for you [30:17] a did this require a lot of work like [30:20] this being able to hold [30:23] multiple conflicting worlds [30:25] >> all the time. all the time. It's [30:26] effortful. [30:29] You open up the news and you hear and [30:31] you see the way people are talking. [30:32] There was just recently a publication [30:33] that came out right before the Yam that [30:35] I enjoy that I recoiled when I saw it [30:39] and this isn't a publication that I feel [30:41] comfortable with and and in many ways [30:43] enjoy. I recoiled from it from one of [30:45] the whatever one of the I don't it [30:47] represented the the lead art represented [30:50] something that was so painful and that [30:52] was so hurtful. It was so [30:56] like this is what you highlighted and I [30:58] was so upset by it. I was stared by it [31:02] and um it was on Aravant that I saw it [31:04] and I had already gone to mikvah and I [31:06] had already like started [31:08] like I was lit. The soundtrack was the [31:10] playlist was already gone. Playlist was [31:12] in the house. It was knocking. It was [31:14] like a good vibe. Like I went back again [31:17] to Mikva later in the day because I was [31:19] like I was so bothered by it. I took it [31:21] out of the house and I even though Koi [31:22] wrote a letter like it's it's but we [31:26] can't just like go like you know with [31:28] your hand you can't just brush them away [31:29] and say that and and push people away [31:32] and say I don't like it. I disagree with [31:34] it or or it's ugly and I and and and and [31:38] therefore they're not part of my I don't [31:40] know fill in your blank over here. No, [31:42] these are my brothers. This is my [31:43] family. This is Cla. I I I can't be out [31:47] there on it. You can't on the left and [31:49] on the right and every person, you know, [31:51] we all think that we're just right down [31:53] the middle. Yeah. [31:54] >> We're the consensus, right? So, [31:56] of course, it's effortful and it and [31:58] we're not always I mean, we're not [32:00] always doesn't always work. It could be [32:02] a lot of you know it could be a very [32:06] gut-wrenching and painful process but [32:09] but I don't know this requires [32:11] mysterious nephesh for Torah and this is [32:14] avah [32:23] I mean do we want to be people who have [32:25] elevated way of seeing ourselves and [32:27] seeing each other do we want to be [32:29] people who are part of the problem or we [32:31] want to part of the solution. Do we want [32:33] to be people who are holding back the [32:34] goula or do we want to be people who are [32:36] pushing the goula forward? I don't know [32:38] that having stink eye and being critical [32:40] and writing angry posts on Facebook and [32:42] and uh you knowing somebody on Twitter [32:45] or magnifying and spreading negative [32:49] you know ugliness and and and things to [32:52] like have your to your triumph your [32:55] oneup another person and show like look [32:57] how bad they are look how low they are [32:59] it's it's embarrassing it's I think it's [33:00] hurtful to Hashem I believe that it [33:02] causes pain and that it perpetuates [33:05] golas and it doesn't make things better. [33:07] It doesn't make things better. They were [33:09] teaching the entire Torah and I think [33:10] about about RF Kluger and this is you [33:13] asked about Rebe when I met him and and [33:16] hear the way he sees the world and talks [33:18] about people and movements and and [33:20] ideas. I I said like this is a reba like [33:24] this is a a rabb and I couldn't I figure [33:26] I couldn't put my finger on it exactly [33:27] what it was [33:29] >> because a lot of people say deep ideas [33:31] and you know and avoid [33:34] do you know [33:35] >> of holiness I'm like was it that he was [33:37] down to earth is that he had made space [33:39] and allowed myself and a couple other in [33:42] and and I spent a lot of time a lot of [33:44] time myself and and Dan Wartsburgger we [33:47] would spend days and nights driving in [33:50] the north and spending time in like very [33:52] intimate, very personal ways and and at [33:55] a certain point I realized what it what [33:56] makes it what's so big is that he's just [33:59] sees the good just can won't get drawn [34:05] into something which is negative. It [34:07] just won't you won't hear it. Not a word [34:09] of negativity, not relating to a [34:12] person's aos or mistakes or lackings or [34:14] failures, not mine, not others, not his [34:17] own, not other movements. just can't [34:20] squeeze it out of like this is what a [34:22] sadic is. This is a reb this I want to [34:24] be like like I want to bring that I want [34:26] to be like that in my house like I want [34:28] my kids like that's that's what I want [34:29] around I want it's so easy to look at [34:33] you know anyone and focus on what's [34:35] going wrong is called [34:39] this righteous man who was [34:40] wholeheartedly walked with God and and [34:43] and right away this person who was [34:46] chosen to perpetuate humanity to save [34:49] the world built a ta who had faith and [34:52] sacrifice in God who who who brought his [34:54] whole family involved. I mean right away [34:57] we're talking ah he didn't d it enough [34:59] he didn't do enough for other people [35:01] he's relative if he would have been in [35:04] this generation the generation ofu you [35:06] could say he wouldn't have been such a [35:07] big deal or the truth is you could say [35:09] had he been in generation maybe he would [35:12] have been picked up and elevated by the [35:14] and rashi says [35:18] there are those among our teachers who [35:20] are who interpret it or dishes who who [35:24] explain it or frame Noah, you know, in a [35:27] positive sense and and praise him. [35:31] And there are those who see the cup as [35:33] half empty and and we'll say nah, he [35:35] wasn't so great. It was just kind of [35:36] relative greatness and it was uh from [35:40] Kas who pointed out this beautiful [35:41] thought which is what I identified in my [35:44] which is what I I I literally ask Hashem [35:47] every day that I should can be counted [35:48] among these people is that [35:53] how do you know who's a leader in the [35:55] Jewish people? How do you know who's [35:56] worthy of looking up to? Who do you know [35:58] who's really somebody who's a a manic a [36:00] leader and someone who's worthy of [36:02] teaching Torah and being a role model? [36:08] And then there are others who are if [36:09] you're just not. [36:12] So when you see something on social [36:13] media or you see something on WhatsApp [36:15] or you read something in an article and [36:16] there's a person who knows a lot of [36:17] Torah who has a leadership position [36:19] who's just talking garbage about other [36:21] Jews who's just talking down who's just [36:24] being mazal others or saying something [36:26] which is just doesn't sound right it's [36:28] just it's negative it's toxic it's it's [36:30] it's hurtful it's it's being insensitive [36:33] it's it's speaking down about another [36:35] segment or sector of the community [36:37] because of their lack of Torah [36:39] observance or because of their behavior [36:40] or because of how they dress or because [36:42] of what they do or because they just [36:43] think differently and they're talking [36:47] it's exiled not redeemed it's not [36:50] finding the light it's [36:54] the focusing on what's on that you lost [36:57] when you hear words of encouragement and [36:59] positivity it's and that's the litmus [37:02] test that's just a litmus test and and [37:05] even big people a lot of Torah Torah [37:08] could be or it could be someh it could [37:10] be an elixir of life or it could be [37:12] something which is poison [37:14] and and hurt people hurt people and [37:15] we've been hurt for 2,000 years. We we [37:17] we've been like Moshe begged God for [37:20] mercy for the Jewish people that we just [37:24] it's not our fault. It's not our it's [37:26] not it's not your fault. Will not your [37:28] fault. We're hurt. you've been damaged [37:30] and and and and it's instead of getting [37:32] angry at each other, leaders are angry [37:34] at big people with platforms who should [37:36] know better who just aren't don't read [37:40] the room and say something reprehensible [37:43] and insensitive at like very sensitive [37:46] moments in time. I'm being careful to [37:48] not I don't want to [37:50] >> It's not about anybody, but I understand [37:51] >> it is about I have in my mind three [37:53] people right now who are who are people [37:56] of who have tremendous respect and [37:57] tremendous Torah and it's so [37:59] disappointing. It's so disappointing. [38:02] That's Torah. I don't know. I don't if [38:03] that's Torah. I'm not interested. Who [38:06] wants that? It's [38:10] in that way. They're not great. [38:15] Greatness is in another area. I love [38:16] that term. [38:20] >> That's I heard that first from Ravi. [38:22] >> What was the context of [38:23] >> I mean somebody was asking how could you [38:25] the say this and that but how could they [38:27] be could you the [38:30] talking about the TM you know the [38:33] >> and his response in that specific [38:35] question was [38:37] because a person is able to interpret [38:39] every to know every [38:42] and and be an expert in every facet of [38:44] the [38:46] could be there in the [38:48] doesn't mean they have good social [38:50] acumen. Doesn't mean they know how to [38:51] read the room. Doesn't mean that every [38:53] opinion they say about history or [38:55] sociology is good. Doesn't mean that [38:57] they they're [38:59] such a thing. I don't know if that's I [39:01] don't know that there are certain [39:02] communities who might feel that that's a [39:04] undermines the the role of a manic. I [39:07] don't know. I think that we have such a [39:08] thing in also that the gdole the aos we [39:12] have people who made mistakes. people [39:14] who misspoke people who did things and I [39:17] can't we can't throw the baby can't [39:19] throw the baby out with a bath water and [39:20] you can't just possle people and big [39:22] people because of it [39:25] the same way that that I am and that you [39:26] are and that we all have our strength we [39:28] expect more shouldn't have a a dot on [39:31] their on their shirt [39:34] it's b it's more disappointing because [39:37] because we believe in the Torah because [39:39] we believe in in Gdolei's ability to [39:42] like see a big [39:43] that when there's smallness it hurts. [39:46] >> Yeah. [39:47] >> We recoil from it. [39:48] >> Yeah. [39:49] >> But it's not because we don't believe. [39:50] It's because we do believe. It's because [39:52] we believe in the kite. We believe in [39:54] Torah. [39:56] >> Torah makes a Torah is Torah's [39:58] magnificent. It's magnanimous. It's big. [40:01] >> It's big. It's from Torah. So when it's [40:05] not it's like no it's [40:11] said about [40:13] and [40:15] we're suffering with that we are beaten [40:17] we went through the we're suffering [40:19] trauma meaning we're trying to figure [40:20] out what to do over here and and there's [40:23] a there's a we're in a and um we have to [40:28] just be we have to be a little bit [40:30] patient they a little bit patient and a [40:32] little bit patient with God's [40:34] patient with ourselves and patient with [40:36] others and a little bit faith in the in [40:38] the big bigger picture in God's plan. [40:40] Let me ask you and really this is I so [40:44] appreciate it but you know you mentioned [40:45] that I love the way that you frame the [40:48] story of as the brothers are selling out [40:53] one of their own Yoseph and as there's [40:55] this cataclysmic biblical fight within a [40:58] family it's in that moment that the [41:00] seeds of Messiah Yehuda and Tamar and [41:03] you can look it's right over there and [41:05] Rashi says it that that he's sewing the [41:07] the aura of Messiah the light of Messiah [41:10] was coming in. So, we've been focusing a [41:12] lot on like how you deal with the [41:13] negativity. I'm curious [41:16] where where do you turn to? Where do you [41:17] look when you want to find or you need [41:21] to be reminded of that messianic light [41:24] that's unfolding? Where do you go to [41:27] fill up your tank with Cluso optimism [41:31] where you want to feel [41:34] I was going to sound I look at my [41:36] family, my kids, the kids and their [41:38] friends. this generation init and here [41:42] also I tell you that you see young [41:45] people it's not a safe error it's like [41:46] I'll read kadusha sliy or youn [41:50] like you know [41:53] I read this no but in all I I look [41:57] around you have to have eye [42:00] to have eyes to see you look I look at [42:03] my kids I look what they're busy with I [42:04] look at how they're spending their free [42:05] time helping people and volunteering and [42:08] I look at their mira [42:09] I see our daughters they're regular. [42:10] They raised regular kids that their that [42:13] their sacrifice for other Jews and their [42:15] willingness and their allinness on [42:19] specifically came out during this war [42:22] and both both the and and and our other [42:25] our other kids who their commitment to [42:27] Torah and their excitement for for [42:29] Yiddish kite and for the future. It was [42:31] just we had Mos Shabas here on TK. We [42:34] hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of [42:36] people came on the Saturday night after [42:39] yum after Yontiff was already like it's [42:40] time to just like let things go. We're [42:42] on fire. There's growth. There's [42:44] positivity. There's people learning. How [42:46] many people are learning 60, thou the [42:48] biggest shir in the history of Kai [42:50] Israel is in our days. There are people [42:52] learning. I have probably 15 friends. [42:54] We're learning you shall now. [42:56] >> Yeah. [42:56] >> Right. Like my shoulders [42:58] >> learn now. Right. Like I don't like I [43:01] don't know. I'm on like this weekly [43:02] Taharos thing like I'm like what what [43:04] what's going just open our eyes look [43:06] around. I see I just see it in my own [43:08] home. So much good and so much [43:10] positivity. I think like if we just I [43:13] don't know that there's a book. I don't [43:14] know that it's a podcast. I don't know [43:15] that there's like a a place you can go [43:17] and a well that you can drink from. It's [43:19] not from the rabbis. It's not from the [43:22] leadership. It's not the prime minister [43:23] that's going to lead us to the promised [43:24] land. It's not the Dermadini. It's not [43:26] the Ramat Khal. It's certainly not the [43:29] the Supreme Court. that we have a lot of [43:31] tikuin and a lot of chuva that has to [43:33] happen. God's plan doesn't end with the [43:36] foundation of the state of Israel. It [43:37] doesn't end with like this process of [43:39] elections in Israel. That's not it. It's [43:41] just that's not it. We're waiting for [43:44] looking for waiting for [43:48] waiting a great the great day of [43:50] vengeance on our enemies. [43:55] There's a there's a big picture here. [43:56] It's not just like oh hopefully we'll [43:57] get 61 seats. our team, our color war [43:59] team will get 61 seats and the other guy [44:02] will get a little bit less and then I'll [44:03] get my budget and you'll get your budget [44:05] and then we'll have a little quiet till [44:06] the next round of fighting. It's that's [44:08] not redemptive. That's not big picture. [44:10] I I just the answer is not going to come [44:13] from [44:15] top down. The answer is going to come [44:17] from just regular people like us. The [44:19] Ravatal explains or cook explains I [44:21] think we were talking about this in the [44:23] memoratal explains that there's a [44:26] certain amount of god consciousness in [44:28] the world certain amount of prophecy a [44:31] unit in the be earlier stages of history [44:34] that was concentrated in a very small [44:37] group of people called avot fathers and [44:39] mothers and it was passed down to like [44:42] theim and then passed down further into [44:44] the prophets the naveim and then to the [44:48] to the zakimadah [44:50] and then the sanhedrin and it was [44:52] concentrated and focused and the ba [44:54] mikdash the kohanim right [44:56] >> the same unit of prophecy [44:58] >> that right exactly was iterated [45:00] >> to the leadership of the [45:01] >> elite and the leadership and it was kind [45:02] of like you know the lishka was there [45:05] with the sanhedrin and there was the [45:07] tumim and and the kohanim and then [45:09] >> and and that's way that's kind of it was [45:11] it started very small kind of slowly but [45:13] surely spread but that same amount of [45:17] that same unit of god consciousness of [45:19] clarity of prophecy of kesh and after [45:22] destruction of the temple the process of [45:24] that the shattering and the [45:26] decentralization [45:28] that it kind of what's it diffused yeah [45:32] >> diffused into the into Israel [45:36] >> and that same amount of prophecy is now [45:39] >> it's it's it's latenc within every [45:40] single one of us when every child and [45:42] every woman and every man in Kal Israel [45:44] has that we have that in them. We have [45:46] that in our in us. And explains that as [45:48] we get closer to the end of history. We [45:51] don't find it in the leadership anymore, [45:52] but we find it among the masses, in the [45:54] movements. You saw that in the in the [45:57] war. You saw you see it among the [46:00] soldiers. You see it at the kotel. It's [46:02] not just on the base mish anymore. It's [46:04] not that the hedgeimonyy of, you know, [46:06] God, you know, of of God's will [46:09] trademark [46:10] >> being in this specific base or this [46:13] specific house of worship or this [46:14] specific tradition or this specific [46:17] group of people like it's just not it. [46:18] It's that that that's shattered that [46:20] that has to keep shattering [46:21] >> and people trying to hold on very strong [46:23] to that. You could say for control, for [46:25] power, for but but it's it's it's for to [46:28] maintain the flask of oil in its pure [46:30] sense and and to hold on to to to rats [46:32] and hashem and to hold on to God's oil [46:33] and their interpretation of that because [46:35] we had to do that for a couple thousand [46:37] years very very strong to hold on and [46:39] it's hard to change and it takes a lot [46:40] of turns on a big wheel. But now you [46:43] we're seeing an awakening and I'm seeing [46:45] it in regular kids in my neighborhood. I [46:48] saw Mot Shabas here in Teneek, New [46:50] Jersey. Hundreds and hundreds of high [46:52] school and college students who are and [46:54] regular people from the neighborhood [46:56] coming out that are Mot Shabas [46:59] dancing and singing the gimm and lit up [47:02] like there's an awakening that's taking [47:04] place in the masses and we're still [47:06] stuck in the concept of like looking up [47:07] what are they saying? What are those the [47:09] rabbis saying? Yeah. [47:12] Everyone has their place and it's [47:14] important to be respectful of [47:15] transmission and rabbis and leadership [47:18] but they're not the answer. It's not [47:20] coming from there. It's coming. [47:24] It's following. It's following. There's [47:27] something that's taking place in the [47:28] community's ground up. It's not reported [47:30] in the news all the time. It's literally [47:32] to be is just to see what's happening. [47:35] Like look around at all the in the [47:37] community. Look at all the goodness in [47:38] the community. Like look at all the the [47:41] the stucker that's been given and all [47:43] the all the this is the regular people [47:46] when we get stuck in ideologies and [47:48] political parties like we move away from [47:52] what's from who we really are and we [47:54] fall into this trap this like the old [47:57] trap of like defining us based on who [47:58] you're voting elections are the main [48:00] thing is elections [48:04] that's the whole thing like I feel like [48:06] the election elections is like a mush [48:07] it's important to vote for you your [48:09] conscience and other people who don't [48:11] want to vote also don't vote your [48:12] conscience whatever but that's what [48:14] defines us a Yankee fan this is like a [48:18] there's no political party that that [48:19] touches pushes all my buttons vote for I [48:22] have to vote for it whatever because [48:23] there's enough there that's important [48:24] that represents whatever in some sense [48:27] vision for the future whatever but [48:29] that's not it's okay [48:34] and there's many different ways to [48:35] understand this if we're going to cut [48:38] out other people have different views [48:39] and different opinions because like [48:40] we've undermined the entire way that [48:42] Torah is intended to be lived and [48:44] learned. [48:45] I mean, we have that's the entire Torah [48:48] is based around. I'm just trying to like [48:49] remember like to not to be stuck and [48:53] some a big person or a person who's big [48:55] in certain regards or many regards, you [48:57] know, represents a certain thing like [48:59] says something which is reprehensible, [49:01] right? I don't know. And you can't say I [49:04] maybe they're hungry, maybe they're [49:05] tired, maybe whatever. Then no, maybe [49:08] they this is what they believe and what [49:09] they think and like okay that's okay. I [49:12] think it's wrong and I think it's a [49:15] failure and morally apprehensible to to [49:17] say something like that, think like [49:18] that. I think it's a bad vision for the [49:19] future. I think it's dangerous. I'm not [49:21] going to vote for that person. I I have [49:24] to hate that person. I I have to hate [49:25] that person. I hate everybody who who [49:27] respects that person. I can't have [49:29] anything in common with those people. I [49:30] have to I I can't in the end of the day, [49:33] what does Hashem get from that? What [49:34] does have from that? [49:37] This is a fairly small question, but I'm [49:40] I'm also a little bit curious. And then [49:42] and then if you'll indulge me, I would [49:44] love to briefly shift and and push a [49:47] little bit of product together. But [49:50] >> but do you ever get flak from people [49:53] either within or outside of your [49:54] community for not tying down to one way? [49:58] Meaning [49:58] >> I'm tied down. One second. I'm tied [50:00] down. I'm just I'm tied down. I'm tied [50:02] down. I I'm tied down. [50:04] >> Make this point [50:05] >> Jewish. I'm tied down. I'm not tied down [50:08] to your definition of what it is to be [50:10] tied down because I'm not hanging a [50:11] banner of a political party outside of [50:14] my house unless I get home and my kids [50:16] did I don't know you know which is very [50:19] which is very possible or I don't wear [50:21] it like you know saying I identify as a [50:24] >> yeah this [50:26] just because you have to decide who [50:27] what's whether Republican or Democrat or [50:29] whether you're mil like like Yankees or [50:33] Mets like I am tied down I I don't not [50:36] flaky about what I think about what I [50:38] believe and I'm happy to sit and talk [50:39] anybody ask me say what I what I think [50:42] but I also think that you other people [50:43] have ideas too there could be some truth [50:45] there and there's a there's a narrative [50:47] there and there's there's an element [50:49] there that that also deserves to be [50:50] heard and also deserves to be respected [50:52] even if it's low naim and it goes [50:54] against my you know certain have certain [50:56] allergic reactions certain things [50:57] there's truth over there also there's no [51:00] monopoly on on Torah I refuse to to to [51:05] buy into that I refuse to buy into that [51:07] and I do get flack get flack from from [51:09] from all sides. I'm not important enough [51:12] to get enough of flack. I like and I [51:14] also don't I'm also like I don't write [51:15] about any of those things in but like [51:18] it's it's intentionally [51:21] down the middle. [51:22] >> Yes. [51:23] >> It's intentionally that way. Meaning I [51:25] don't like think oh what story could I [51:27] say that'll be a different perspective [51:29] for other people to hear. It's it's that [51:31] I I read Sly Ber's books and I readil [51:34] Spari's books and I love hearing and I [51:37] read the Musli. [51:41] Can I say I'm jumping in I'm [51:42] interrupting you but I want to say this [51:45] publicly. [51:47] I've never I don't think I've ever met. [51:49] >> He's the most generous complimentary [51:52] mashpia in the world. He's a person whoa [51:58] incredible teacher of Torah about [52:01] >> who's not a religious Zionist or modern [52:02] orthodox central person. He tells her [52:05] yes [52:07] >> and and and loves [52:09] >> Jews and I love him and I appreciate him [52:12] and I thank him and absurly specifically [52:14] in the book because I apologize also. [52:17] >> Truly I love also but I feel like it's [52:19] well documented. No, meaning it's not [52:21] like they're so different because [52:23] because a step this way, person stepped [52:25] that way. Torah is Torah. It's the same [52:27] the same. [52:30] It's the same. I don't even understand [52:32] when people are like surprised. The guy [52:34] told me last night [52:38] from [52:40] I'm like meaning from Jewish people. I'm [52:41] like, did you read the story about Naomi [52:42] Shemer, bro? You know, like like tell me [52:45] tell me you saw something Ellie Weisel [52:46] in there that was like interesting. Tell [52:48] me that like I got it through that the [52:50] mosaic is so good that they're like you [52:52] know we have professor hesshel okay [52:55] professor but tell me that that was [52:57] interesting to you that you have a story [52:59] babaali and then you have kazunish and [53:00] then you have okay it's intentional [53:03] meaning like there's intentional but [53:05] also because I can't afford I'm not on [53:07] the level I I I don't I was raised in a [53:09] home to to appreciate different voices [53:12] and different beauty I I I have a hard [53:14] time I'll say it from my own upbringing [53:16] and from my own community where we come [53:17] have a very hard time in the modern [53:19] Orthodox community. Very hard time. I [53:21] find it very uncomfortable. It's [53:23] tighter. It's more and more narrow and [53:26] more close-minded. I can't [53:31] I can't handle it. I can't handle it. [53:36] They should do chuva. Also, the also [53:38] those who speak for soldiers should do [53:41] chuva. And those who speak [53:43] disrespectfully about the mysterious [53:46] should do chuva. I have to do chuva. It [53:47] doesn't matter how much to how many [53:48] volumes written in Allah. You have to do [53:50] chuva. I also do chuva. And good news is [53:52] everyone has to do chuva. [53:55] And there's nothing wrong with saying [53:57] such a thing. We're falling short. How [53:59] do I know the goal is not here? That we [54:00] haven't reached that the the final. And [54:03] if we're not able to learn from each [54:04] other and with each other is a total [54:06] failure. Then we missed the point. We [54:08] haven't learned a thing. We haven't [54:10] learned a thing from 2,000 years. [54:13] There's a there's the the author and [54:15] also M having their hag that's a [54:18] beautiful thing if I could I don't want [54:20] to [54:21] >> they have a beautiful paint a beautiful [54:23] picture of that of that night [54:26] when we read about the Israel the Torah [54:29] getting together who was there [54:34] they all came to [54:38] they came to which is interesting I [54:40] suggest it's interesting what are they [54:41] doing over there [54:43] They're not they don't have a apartment [54:44] in Schneller. They couldn't afford a [54:47] place in they go to Ben used to be bene. [54:54] suggestion is that they went there to [54:55] because perhaps it was a time of the [54:58] Roman persecution and there was a war [54:59] and those 24,000 Talmid I mean that [55:03] mysterious uh Oscar whatever was busy [55:08] was busy with Bara and those those [55:10] Talmid were victim were fell in that war [55:13] in a non-metaphoric way and if they [55:15] don't consider that as a serious [55:16] possibility you know not placing the [55:18] story in context it's just a mshall they [55:20] went to her [55:23] and they were hiding There was they [55:25] suggested that perhaps they weren't [55:26] hiding because the temple had been [55:28] destroyed and these gdollam these [55:30] leaders the had seen carbonos in their [55:34] life. They had seen [55:38] and under their watch under their watch [55:41] things fell apart [55:46] and maybe they went to suggested because [55:48] that great optimist because he saw the [55:51] foxes on the temple mount and understood [55:53] that the prophecy of destruction came [55:55] true and he believed in God's story and [55:57] the end of the story that also the [55:59] temple will be rebuilt and he was able [56:01] to laugh at that. [56:05] And maybe that's why they were by Rabbi [56:07] Ka. They were in hiding there. Anyways, [56:09] they were there in Ben. [56:12] They're talking about gullis and gula. [56:15] They were reaching back to that the [56:17] paradigm of the exile, a national exile. [56:20] And [56:22] the beller pointed out [56:25] means that night. They were talking [56:26] about the lila, the exile, darkness, the [56:29] night of exile. And they were there the [56:31] whole night. And then what happened? [56:33] They were there the whole night trying [56:34] to figure out where this went wrong. How [56:37] are we going to get out of this? [56:39] How are we going to get out of this? [56:41] Until the talum came and said [56:45] the of [56:49] what did they say? [56:51] >> They didn't say that. They didn't say [56:53] they said [56:57] they said [56:58] he gives man. [57:01] The students of one said about the rebi [57:03] of the other. [57:05] It wasn't just like the guys from [57:07] Lakewood came and said about their [57:08] rashish and the guys from the heights [57:10] about their rashiva from America and [57:12] from [57:14] then the guys came down from harra and [57:18] only focusing on their rebi my rebi the [57:21] truth is by us god's will is by me [57:24] they're able to say plural [57:27] >> and then he gives now [57:31] god's name is one when are able to see [57:34] good in each We're able to respect each [57:36] other's perspectives in the when we say [57:39] and who's raenu [57:41] >> those who are [57:44] if we could see good in another person's [57:46] perspective [57:47] >> and we could understand to agree I don't [57:51] have to agree I don't have to live the [57:52] way you are have to do your thing to be [57:55] able to understand that there's [57:57] something true and there's something [57:58] beautiful there [58:00] in the language of [58:03] when we camped at Mount Si [58:05] We camp there. Everyone says [58:08] but how did they camp with one heart [58:11] with one person says [58:14] they saw in each other they saw that [58:16] there was something good in every person [58:19] everybody had their own place at my spec [58:22] I had my place I'm not changing I don't [58:23] have to be like you I don't have to do [58:25] like you have my opinions [58:28] but I understand that you have you too [58:31] then we can receive the Torah with one [58:32] heart as one person then we can say Rabb [58:35] then we get out of exile then we're able [58:36] to extricate ourselves from this mess to [58:38] go to [58:40] saw [58:44] and yet [58:45] somehow missed that and weren't didn't [58:49] show that respect to each other they [58:51] came there and it was it was something [58:52] they're all trying to figure out how do [58:53] we do this how do we get this right like [58:56] how do we fix this [58:59] answer is to be people who are dishw [59:02] you know, we're here together and we're [59:04] both appreciate the significance of [59:06] pushing product and I also want to say I [59:09] think in different languages and with [59:11] different stories, our books are trying [59:13] to accomplish very similar things. Um, I [59:16] feel like my book is not only a love [59:18] letter to the communities where I gave [59:19] over this Torah because this is like my [59:21] only live Torah that I give over as like [59:23] my parishes, but the whole I love [59:26] Claudius. I I I I really do. And I think [59:29] that when you learn about the history [59:30] and the controversies and the fights and [59:32] the both sides of all the fights, it [59:34] helps you appreciate it more. It doesn't [59:35] make me hate anybody. I'm just like [59:38] there there's room, especially when [59:39] you're approaching it stories from half [59:41] a century ago, many centuries ago, like [59:44] it doesn't feel it's not like watching [59:46] your parents embarrass you. Do you know [59:48] what I mean? It's like it's hearing an [59:50] interesting story about your [59:50] great-grandfather. It's like ah. So I [59:53] want to do rapid fire push product to um [59:57] talk about our book. Opening question. [60:00] Before you wrote the book, did you have [60:01] a favorite para in general? Not not your [60:04] writing. What's your favorite part in [60:05] Torah? [60:05] >> Isla. [60:07] >> Yeah, because it's my barit. I know it. [60:09] So I'm able to like sound proficient in [60:11] Torah around. [60:12] >> Oh, that's nice. My is never [60:15] >> Well, you that makes sense. above a come [60:18] like you that was a gateway for to me it [60:19] was a gateway to like nationalism [60:21] >> and independence which was like it just [60:23] it worked out really really well. [60:25] >> Yeah. Okay. [60:26] >> War there's war. [60:27] >> Yeah. [60:28] >> There's there's a sticking up for his [60:30] going in for his nephew. There's drama, [60:33] there's and there's and I feel like I [60:36] was shaped by [60:37] >> my favorite para was not my barb para [60:40] which is mishbatim but the maftier was [60:43] para skullum which is the beginning of [60:46] kisa and kisa is my favorite para in the [60:48] Torah. I'm a I'm a big kisa fan. I think [60:51] it's like the ingredients of of purum, [60:54] modernity, or oral Torah, uh, Cla with [60:58] the shekel. Uh, in your book bad, do you [61:01] have a favorite para that you wrote on [61:04] to write about? [61:06] >> No. [61:07] >> For real? [61:07] >> Yeah, for real. For real. I know that [61:10] sounds fine. For for real, for real. [61:13] >> Fascinating. And now is that the do you [61:15] have a favorite Torah? Well, no, because [61:17] it's usually like I have a good story [61:19] and then try to like connect it to the [61:21] para. It's like I I I [61:22] >> Do you start with the story usually? [61:24] >> Yeah. [61:26] God starts with the story. [61:29] God starts with a story. What are you [61:30] talking about? It's a but that's a flex [61:32] story. Theost everybody wants a story. [61:35] >> So, let me ask it that way. What's your [61:36] favorite story in the book? You must [61:38] have one. [61:40] >> My favorite story is about um Professor [61:43] Hessel. [61:44] >> Really? [61:44] >> Yeah. Yeah. He was walking in the west [61:47] side [61:49] um to the seminary there and um and [61:53] there's a to administer a smika test and [61:58] uh there's a fellow came for test there [62:00] in the on the in the city and uh the [62:04] first question he asked him was about [62:05] whether he had noticed the person who [62:08] was collecting on the corner. [62:11] >> That was the first question he asked [62:13] him. Did you notice that there was [62:14] somebody asking for a stuck on the [62:16] corner? [62:16] >> Yeah. In other words, the daff olive, [62:18] it's the story again. It's the story [62:20] before. It's the contact before the [62:22] content. It's the the the misa, the [62:25] humanity, the the narrative, the [62:27] background, the people and then you know [62:30] the application of it. Yeah. [62:32] >> I like my Torah on Bahaloska because it [62:34] is my struggle of life. my Torah Bala [62:38] which is from Salvador [62:42] but it's about the upside down nuns [62:44] being the alternative history of the [62:46] Jewish people and the essay is about the [62:49] role of alternative history in your own [62:51] life [62:51] >> beautiful can I put you on the spot [62:53] >> please [62:53] >> what's what's your favorite in my book [62:55] >> don't start with me I'll tell you I love [62:57] the no on shabas the conference shabas [63:00] >> I heard that live [63:02] >> and when you gave me the book this [63:03] summer I started looking around for it [63:05] >> because It changed the way I I [63:07] experience and appreciate Shabas and as [63:09] gateway to community. But I'm not [63:10] letting you off the hook. What's your [63:11] favorite? [63:12] >> A I just got your book. [63:14] >> That's fair. That's fair. It's also just [63:17] it's only the week of paras. You could [63:20] say I'm looking forward this year [63:21] instead of learning. [63:24] Is anybody going to listen to laning [63:26] anymore now that is out of the Torah? [63:28] I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's [63:30] >> like it's like the sages were concerned [63:32] about the about the Rambam's Mishna [63:34] Torah. Were they not? I love you. I love [63:37] you. I love you. I love you. Is that too [63:38] much? [63:38] >> No, no, no. That's [63:40] >> Also, I don't care if anybody if anybody [63:42] reads the book. Just at least buy it. [63:44] >> No, for sure. And I tell my students to [63:46] buy two copies, [63:47] >> one for the shelf, one bake into your [63:50] kalas as a schooler. [63:51] >> I hold it as a school to have vader in [63:53] every room in your home. Certainly a [63:55] schooler for me. Certainly good. [63:58] Certainly good for me. [63:59] >> When and where do you like to write [64:01] most? Oh, I love writing on my dining [64:04] room table. That's where I write my uh [64:07] on my laptop. The dining room table. [64:11] How about you? You do down here in the [64:13] cave in the in the studio. [64:15] >> I'll switch off. But the truth is I like [64:18] I sometimes like a little bit of chaos [64:20] as I'm writing. A little bit of kids [64:22] running in and out. It's too um it [64:26] What's the word like for a doctor's [64:27] office? It's too sanitized. [64:28] >> Sterile and sterile. No, it's not a [64:30] petri dish. I that's why I like the [64:31] dining room table. That's where the [64:32] action happens. [64:33] >> Yeah, [64:33] >> I like it. I come walk in and come in, [64:35] come out, which is Tova's favorite piece [64:38] in the [64:39] >> Barak Hashem. I don't know if you have [64:40] the similar. And I say, "Thank God. My [64:43] wife does not consume my content." [64:45] >> That's the best. The best. [64:47] >> My wife is doesn't have a favorite [64:48] episode of 1840. I don't think she's I [64:52] don't think she's looked at any of my [64:53] books. She's probably heard a total of [64:55] two or three episodes since I started. [64:58] The funny thing is there's some greatest [65:00] hits in my book. Yeah. Some great [65:01] meaning this is a compilation. This is a [65:03] columns. It's compilation. [65:05] >> This is like the huh haya omare. [65:06] >> Yeah. [65:07] >> You know, oh my dad always used to say [65:08] this and oh that one. Oh yeah. You know [65:11] like now I put it in there like that's [65:12] it and done toast. [65:14] >> It's like a comedian who's like puts out [65:16] their [65:16] >> It's in the Netflix. Yeah. It's in this [65:18] special now. You know, you work out the [65:19] bits. Yeah. [65:20] >> And then you put it out there and it's [65:21] out. You can't like that again. So the [65:24] the most wonderful thing in the world is [65:25] that um is that I is that Ora doesn't [65:28] necessarily remember [65:31] >> the first time for Mish like the first [65:33] time. It's first time love at first [65:35] sight over and over again. It's ground [65:37] talk. [65:38] >> It's the first time the Torah for the [65:40] first time for us. [65:41] >> It's Yeah, it's it's Adam and Eve like [65:43] the first day of creation over and over [65:45] and over and over again. No, like cuz [65:47] you know what? I feel like if your if [65:49] your wife is one of your groupies that [65:52] then she's also going to one day get [65:53] bored of you. [65:54] >> I don't want that. [65:59] >> How did you pick out and I you've had a [66:01] similar cover throughout. Talk to me [66:04] about how you chose the cover and the [66:06] and this title bad which is now a hagada [66:10] on the para and like a standalone. I [66:13] mean, but there I'm so glad because it [66:16] really encapsulates like the feeling of [66:17] like I'm not don't claim that this is [66:19] like the I'm like an expert on anything [66:23] or that this is a finished product or [66:26] that this is going to be the end all be [66:27] all of what it's all about. This is just [66:29] like where I am up to you know everyone [66:33] all of us like I said my favorite part [66:34] is everyone is somewhere along their [66:37] journey somewhere along the path the [66:39] story is in the middle and when the [66:41] story is in the middle when it's along [66:43] the path when we are [66:46] sobb [66:49] along the way I I I told a story and [66:52] then that story changes and it unfolds [66:54] and it and it continues and it you know [66:56] there's there's a lot of hope and faith [66:58] that that story is going to have a [66:59] wonderful continuation, a wonderful end. [67:01] And I like that being a work in progress [67:03] kind of encapsulates the way I what I [67:05] see was most beautiful about Yiddish [67:06] kite is that the bonus is just expecting [67:09] us to be proud of being works in [67:12] progress. And [67:13] >> tell me about the cover. Tell me about [67:14] this. I I love this painting. [67:17] >> The originals are from from uh Kleinman [67:21] Zman Kleinman of Blessed Memory was a [67:23] real one of artist and it's a classic. [67:26] The title of it is called fromlavich to [67:28] labavich. It's a depiction of a group of [67:31] going to visit their their rebi and it's [67:33] this you know that the chariot the back [67:34] of the wagon of the benttov so to speak [67:36] inspired by this is just there kind of [67:39] you know in this liinal state between [67:41] heaven and earth [67:43] on the way [67:44] >> are are the in this picture based on [67:47] real [67:48] >> that's Ari and melik blumstein that's [67:50] that's Mikey Ruain that's Alex cla no [67:54] they they there's a version of that but [67:56] this original is I don't know it's [67:58] climbing in his mind's eye that's his [68:00] composite sketch of some in the original [68:03] in the OG painting there's a peasant [68:06] drunk on the ground on the floor next to [68:07] the next to the barn [68:09] >> other to say like you know we're [68:11] transcending we're we're going higher [68:13] after the fabangan when I I asked his [68:16] his wife asked [68:19] if I would be able to have the privilege [68:20] of of using it and you know she was like [68:23] that's so nice so many people have used [68:25] my husband's paintings without [68:26] permission of course it was what what a [68:27] pleasure I appreciate it. So, yeah, I [68:29] sent a couple boxes just as Zakarat and [68:31] then in the introduction to Bader, the [68:33] original, I wrote a little thing there [68:35] saying like, please judge this book by [68:36] the cover, by its cover like this is [68:38] aspirational. This is kind of like I [68:40] just want to be with Kevra and be on [68:43] this trip together and be together in [68:46] synagogue. I wrote about like opens up [68:48] with about the cover. [68:49] >> Yeah, I love it. I please judge this [68:52] book by by the cover because there's [68:54] something aspirational and hopeful and [68:57] fun and just like who doesn't love a [68:59] road trip. [69:00] >> Yeah. [69:00] >> Good tunes, good friends, you know, you [69:02] got a good playlist, some good snacks. [69:04] Like all the good stories happen by on [69:08] the way. When when a person feels like [69:10] I'm there, I've reached it. I've [69:11] accomplished it, then there's no more [69:12] space, no room to grow or to change, to [69:15] shift or to be open to new things. So [69:16] there's to be open to the possibility of [69:19] of the road which I read this over [69:21] Shabas. How you read read a full book on [69:23] Shabas? [69:25] >> Nah, I don't really read a full book on [69:27] Shabas. I do read a lot. I've always [69:29] loved reading. I love reading Jewish [69:31] history. I can't get enough of it. The [69:33] only downside is and and you see in the [69:36] difference between mine and your [69:37] writing. I don't have a deep bench of [69:40] inspiring punchy stories. Do you have a [69:43] system for how you collect and [69:46] categorize your Torah? [69:47] >> Totally. [69:48] >> What's your system? [69:49] >> Not. I mean, I've seen yours, but you [69:51] once showed me. [69:51] >> I have a crazy system. [69:52] >> It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. [69:54] >> Um I try to just remember the things [69:55] that I love. [69:57] >> Like I [69:57] >> would you like organize on your [69:58] computer? [69:59] >> Not any I you know I you I used to there [70:01] was a time where I was it used to be [70:03] like papers. [70:05] >> Yeah, I started with that. I started [70:06] with note cards. [70:07] >> I had folders. That's how was like I had [70:10] you know it's it's an acronym of shuva [70:13] b like things that related to shvisi or [70:16] things that related to shuva different [70:17] topics I had like folders manila folders [70:20] and then when I started writing um it's [70:22] really just I mean I I said it in the [70:24] acknowledgements like it's really like [70:26] all those years of like when I was sha [70:29] rebi yammer who was my shaal rebi I told [70:32] him I was having like like wild dreams [70:34] like you and I very first conversation I [70:38] had with him. And I don't even know why. [70:40] I just like it was a wild time. It was [70:42] 1995. [70:44] It was like very foreign to me, the [70:46] whole thing. And and it was like very [70:49] disconnected from the day-to-day [70:51] schedule at the beginning there. Like [70:52] totally didn't know I was flying. But I [70:54] enjoyed there was like eight English [70:56] books in the library. like I was bring [70:58] them and I said like at night I'm just [70:59] like I'm I'm I'm reading I was reading [71:01] Jabbatinsky the two volume [71:03] >> biography of Jabbatinsky and I like you [71:05] know blood and Zion and on the gallows [71:08] and bless you and I was reading the [71:10] revolt. I mean that's what was going on [71:11] at night. I was reading those books and [71:13] I was having like crazy aggressive [71:15] dreams and like I just I would be up a [71:18] lot at night and then like not get up in [71:20] the morning for doing. So was kind of [71:22] like mentioning this. I'm like, well, I [71:24] have a hard time going to sleep at night [71:25] because I get all riled up because I'm [71:28] reading, you know, the stuff. He said, [71:30] you should read stories of Tadikim [71:31] before he goes to sleep. Before you go [71:32] to sleep. So, I went to the library and [71:34] one of the eight books in English was at [71:36] Sadak in our time. Oh, [71:37] >> from Barry Lavine and I fell in love [71:41] Barry Lavine and I fell in love with [71:42] stories of Sadikim. And then I read the [71:45] my parents my mother when she came to [71:47] visit brought all the Ellie Weisel [71:48] somewhere a master and [71:50] >> I'd read Souls on fire in high school [71:52] >> and that was it. Since then I've been [71:54] reading stories of just stories about [71:56] stories at night stories and and and [71:58] biographies and autobiographies of all [71:59] different types of people all different [72:01] types of [72:02] >> interesting people. Um but it was really [72:05] when I when I found Rabbi Spiro's books [72:07] >> Spiro's books [72:09] >> and Rabbi Teller [72:12] >> use like the original [72:13] >> I mean you know Mid speaks Rabbi Cone [72:16] was you know an honorable mention it [72:18] opened up a world a world of Torah and [72:20] Msor that I just hadn't been exposed to [72:22] I didn't learn about I didn't hear about [72:23] it I didn't know about it right I had [72:25] never been exposed to it and reading [72:28] stories about tells and me and the [72:30] panharv I fell in love with the paner [72:33] and Rabbi Teller's book from Jerusalem, [72:34] his word. Um, [72:37] like I just fell in love with this. I'm [72:38] like, "Oh my god." I like this is [72:40] amazing. [72:40] >> You have a favorite rabbitic biography? [72:42] >> Um, I I I think it's it's in our time. [72:45] >> Really? [72:46] >> I think I just I've read it now. I've [72:47] read it many times. [72:48] >> I think mine might be Thrill's book, [72:51] Thrilly Basters's book, Hunter Filmer [72:53] Firefeld. [72:53] >> Yeah. I mean, that for sure. It's like [72:55] that that too. [72:56] >> That's like in my pant. [72:57] >> We gave that out in camp one year. I [72:59] bought 200 copies of that summer that it [73:01] came out. We bought 200 copies and gave [73:02] it to all the staff says you have to [73:05] this is a textbook for Yiddish kite. [73:07] Yeah. And when I read by Spir's books [73:09] and Suri's, you know, Suri's books, I [73:11] mean, I oversook. I I read every night I [73:15] fell asleep reading um in the Reb's room [73:17] about uh the Gabby of the vision about [73:20] the vision vision. I'm not a visioner, [73:24] but anything Sulie writes is uh is [73:26] empowering. There's a language, there's [73:27] a tempo to it. [73:29] >> There's a tempo to it. There's a [73:30] language to it. There's a rhythm to it. [73:31] And it's a rhythm of empowerment and of [73:33] kashras. And I I I am it's beautiful. He [73:36] has a couple of of compilations also [73:38] that are that are extraordinarily [73:39] beautiful. But I love reading stories [73:41] from all the different backgrounds I [73:43] read on on from Lawrence. Sure. [73:46] >> Yeah. [73:47] >> Time was unbelievable. Unbelievable. [73:50] Yeah. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. [73:53] I read eight volumes of biography on the [73:56] in Hebrew. [73:58] Yeah. All eight volumes of them. You [74:01] know, did I retain all of it? Did I [74:03] remember all it? But I mark them up and [74:04] I try to go back to them. You know, that [74:08] that formed a certain part of who I am [74:10] reading these stories of of of Sadikim. [74:13] I think I probably relate more to the [74:15] people than the actual Torah. [74:17] >> Yeah. [74:18] >> Than the actual Soius and I'm not proud [74:20] of that, but it's just it's kind of [74:21] Mitsius. [74:22] >> What What books did you first fall in [74:24] love with reading [74:25] >> in a general sense? We read the Hardy [74:27] Boys. [74:27] >> Yeah, that's what I'm asking. [74:28] >> The Hardy Boys. Yeah. My dad had the [74:30] whole Hardy Boys set. [74:32] >> Ah. Um, [74:33] >> I was in the heyday of John Gisham and [74:35] Michael Kiteon. Like I remember reading [74:37] Jurassic Park. [74:38] >> I didn't remember anything. I didn't [74:39] read any any fiction besides the Hardy [74:41] after the Hardy Boys. [74:42] >> I haven't read fiction either since [74:43] elementary school. [74:44] >> No. Yeah. Um, and then and then I think [74:47] when I was in in I read the [74:48] autobiography of Malcolm X when I was in [74:51] 10th grade. [74:52] >> Did you really? [74:52] >> And that lit me up. [74:54] >> Yeah. Yeah, my mom was an was an English [74:55] teacher and um we we didn't have [74:59] >> a different [75:00] >> we didn't have we didn't have unlimited [75:01] like we weren't allowed to watch [75:02] unlimited TV. The autobiograph of [75:05] Malcolm X I think had a lot to do with [75:06] my formative like hashkaf and yishkite [75:10] nationalism identity. Um, from there it [75:13] was a very it was like just one step to [75:15] like you know kahana laavdil. [75:20] Um, and uh the revolt and white knights [75:23] from and [75:24] >> you were reading that stuff in high [75:25] school. [75:25] >> I was in 12th grade. I read this. [75:27] >> Oh wow. So you were you were fired up. [75:29] >> I was fired up. Yeah. [75:31] >> And who are you? [75:32] >> I I was fired up. But Karate. Valoid [75:34] Karate. No. Lloyd Karate. [75:36] >> You haven't called off. [75:37] >> No. No. I'm not going to. I'll call when [75:40] I'm dead and then from the next world if [75:42] it hasn't been solved yet I'll advocate [75:45] for the strength and wellbeing of the [75:47] Jewish people. I I have no [75:52] it's not over I don't understand it's [75:54] hard for me to even relate to it's hard [75:57] for me to relate to people don't learn [75:58] history. So I appreciate and love what [76:00] you what you share and and and your book [76:02] on Torah specifically. I started already [76:05] during the summer during the summer. [76:09] Oh, [76:10] >> I didn't wait. And I had to take it in [76:12] my carry-on bag. No, it's too heavy. [76:14] It's too heavy to bring it. It's too [76:16] heavy. No, it's it's it's [76:18] >> caved from the lb. I was looking at my [76:20] carry-on bag cuz I I I Jewish people [76:23] need a Duncan's mixing kit. I'm saying [76:26] I'm bringing back a pack and play in my [76:27] duffel bag. [76:28] >> It's going to be tough in the big, [76:29] >> you know. But what I appreciate so much [76:31] is that I believe that that that if [76:33] people would appreciate history more and [76:34] it's how it's not like a you know it's [76:36] part of the partis of Torah and without [76:38] it you can't really appreciate what God [76:40] is interested is waiting for us [76:43] >> that I I I feel like there's a real lack [76:45] of appreciation for history in in the [76:47] modern state of Israel and the modern [76:48] Jewish people today. I feel like there's [76:49] a real ignorance of of of history. And [76:52] I'm so grateful to my parents for first [76:55] forcing us to to to read to read Jewish [76:58] history like we had to. [76:59] >> Yeah. [77:00] >> You know, we had to like they wouldn't [77:02] allow us. There was also that was that [77:04] was the Talm Torah in the house also. [77:07] >> Meaning like like my dad wasn't learning [77:09] Kamarra at night. He wasn't but he was [77:11] reading. [77:12] >> Yeah. [77:12] >> Reading books about Israel and Zion. [77:14] >> Yeah. My whole introduction is an [77:15] appreciation for for the reading that my [77:18] parents gave me and they really were my [77:19] teachers in this area which is who do [77:21] you consider your teachers when it comes [77:23] to writing. There are books that were so [77:26] moving to me that that I felt the needle [77:29] of my existence shift like [77:33] I felt moved by writing is not similar [77:36] to [77:36] >> Manakim began [77:38] >> but but the bottom line of feeling proud [77:40] feeling good readan's essays you know [77:44] you read [77:46] >> um it's really also ri I I I [77:50] yeah it's uplifting [77:52] >> it's uplifting the book I mean it's [77:53] uplifting mish it's uplifting that that [77:55] rebel book is a perfect example but also [77:58] on David Shank I mean there's so many [78:00] you know Taler opened up a world and and [78:03] there's a there's a common thread that [78:05] goes through those books whether it's [78:07] about a person from [78:11] or it's a compilation of you know of the [78:14] stories in the ordinity [78:17] there's the rabbish [78:22] and if if there's something that I was [78:23] trying to to inad is to be [78:27] and to model that that that value of [78:31] rabu of just saying like this is [78:33] something for us to learn here from [78:34] everybody and and it's not that you have [78:38] different types of voices and different [78:40] types of stories it's notes it's Jewish [78:43] it's just Jewish how could you afford [78:44] not to [78:46] >> so I I appreciate Elvis you know again [78:50] his writings so much they were so [78:52] formative in my life like it opened up a [78:53] world [78:56] shalom [79:00] those I was at a spent with them many [79:01] many years ago you didn't [79:04] >> one time with my family [79:07] but his writings his writings were [79:09] moving his writings revealed a deep [79:12] another layer of practice another layer [79:15] of intentionality a language that's [79:17] inviting that's warm that welcomes you [79:19] in that's that's comfortable that feels [79:21] good same thing with Ras Hessel Also [79:24] there's a language there that's that's [79:26] very that there's a of yishkite there [79:28] that we have that I think in we have for [79:30] sure in our centrist modernist community [79:32] have a lot to learn from that warmth and [79:34] from that openness there's something [79:36] >> they love cold harsh writing [79:39] >> alone I I didn't relate to it I didn't [79:41] my father said that's not what we come [79:43] from we don't know my parents didn't [79:44] grow up in this parents were did not [79:46] grow up in observant homes he grew up in [79:48] my father my father conservative Jewish [79:50] home my mother in in a non-observant [79:52] like honestly unaffiliated ated but [79:53] really without you know affiliation to a [79:57] community and to a synagogue in that [79:58] formal way and they came through and is [80:03] Jewish and open and warm and confident [80:06] and [80:07] proud and loving and and clawic and [80:11] unapologetic. So like anything that fits [80:14] with that like those are the [80:15] ingredients. So then there's room for [80:17] all those things we mentioned because [80:19] like if that's your bottom line that's [80:20] the bottom line. I don't want to be [80:22] presumptive, but if in some way a Yid [80:24] reads and feels any one of those [80:27] emotions and feelings has moved or just [80:30] feels good about their kite or [80:31] encouraged or invited to a deeper [80:32] engagement with other people and other [80:34] yen, then it was worth all of the [80:36] effort. [80:38] >> My dearest friend, RJA, thank you so [80:40] much for joining me today. Let's [80:41] continue pushing product. Friends, help [80:44] friends push product. And for real, I am [80:46] so grateful for you joining us today. [80:49] >> Thank you very much. The main product is [80:51] Torah Edish. [80:53] Thank you, brother. [80:56] >> Whenever I finish a podcast, inevitably, [80:59] and I always tell my guests this, you're [81:00] going to remember things that you wish [81:03] you included in the conversation. You're [81:04] going to remember different points and [81:07] and you know, there's something I think [81:09] jokingly they call like a podcast [81:10] hangover. A lot of times the next [81:12] morning you wake up like, "Oh my god, I [81:13] can't believe I shared that." So I was [81:15] not surprised that Riv Judah after we [81:19] spoke uh reached out to me and said, "Oh [81:21] my gosh, I cannot believe how much I [81:23] forgot and how much I wanted to talk [81:24] about." What I actually found so [81:27] incredibly moving and really gave me a [81:29] great deal of confidence that he was the [81:31] right person to talk to is what he was [81:35] beating himself up uh for forgetting. [81:38] And Judah immediately after the [81:40] conversation and then that night and [81:42] then the next day was beating himself up [81:44] be like I can't believe that that was my [81:47] answer when you asked me where do I look [81:50] towards to see a little bit of that [81:52] light of Messiah that messianic that [81:54] redemptive light in the world that [81:56] emanates from the Jewish people. You [81:59] could listen to his answer which was [82:00] beautiful. But he called me afterwards [82:03] and he said I I could I should have gone [82:05] on forever. I could have gone on [82:06] forever. There's so many ways to see the [82:08] beauty of the Jewish people. First and [82:10] foremost, he mentioned he said, "I'm the [82:13] director of Camp Haskque. This is a camp [82:15] that services people from many different [82:18] communities, whether it's the community, [82:21] modern Orthodox community, yeshiva [82:24] community, people who are not as closely [82:26] affiliated. Camp Hask has their doors [82:29] open to everyone and they're taking care [82:31] of special needs children. Jewish [82:34] children who were born with disabilities [82:37] and limitations that the camp not only [82:40] addresses but elevates the children and [82:44] elevates everybody who is dedicating [82:46] their lives to helping such children. If [82:49] you've ever visited Campas, I certainly [82:51] have, there is a redemptive light there. [82:53] They see other people differently there. [82:55] They're not fighting in the same ways [82:57] that we fight online or we fight at a [83:00] schul kittish or we fight in our dining [83:01] rooms. And then he said something else [83:04] and R.juda said I I should have spoken [83:07] about Jewish music. And he highlighted [83:09] somebody in particular who I actually [83:10] never heard of. I'm somewhat embarrassed [83:13] but it's such a privilege to be able to [83:16] introduce the the beauty and the [83:17] redemptive light of what's happening in [83:19] the Israeli music scene. You know the [83:22] there's a lot of beautiful things [83:23] happening in the Israeli music scene but [83:25] RA Judah specifically highlighted he [83:28] said have you ever heard the music of [83:29] somebody named Benur [83:32] Benur is I I don't know how to describe [83:35] him religiously but he is of the most [83:37] popular singers in Israel now and he has [83:40] a song he has many songs and and they're [83:43] like they're rocking I mean you you look [83:45] at the concerts and the people who are [83:46] there this is not just for yeshiva [83:49] students this is not just for people who [83:51] have a serious uh background in Jewish [83:54] education. This is for everybody. This [83:57] is for what I like to call our nation, [84:00] our people. This is [84:03] our nation, your nation, our people. And [84:07] the music of Benur, one of his songs is [84:09] called Aavas Hashem, loving God. It's a [84:12] pop song. You see people who are [84:14] literally they're dancing, they're [84:16] singing, but their hearts are opening [84:18] up. There is something unfolding in [84:20] Israel. There is something unfolding in [84:22] the world. There is a redemptive light. [84:25] But anytime that we see a redemptive [84:27] light, there's always going to be [84:30] clouds. There's always going to be a [84:31] little bit of darkness. There's always [84:33] going to be a little bit of [84:34] divisiveness. And I think on an [84:37] individual level, our focus, our avoda, [84:41] our [84:44] practical dedication needs to be [84:45] ensuring that we don't get dragged down [84:48] into the abyss of cynicism, into the [84:51] abyss of negativity. That is a darkness [84:54] that will cover over your life [84:56] personally, and it is a cloud that will [84:58] obscure the beauty not only of the world [85:01] and of the Jewish people, but of [85:03] existence itself. Don't get dragged down [85:06] there. Like Judah discussed, find those [85:09] pockets, find those places to see the [85:12] beauty and the redemptive light of the [85:13] Jewish people. And most importantly, [85:15] work at it. Don't wait for it to come [85:17] passively, but develop the eyes, develop [85:20] the vision to see the beauty, the [85:23] inspiration, and the redemptive light of [85:25] the Jewish people and of the world. So, [85:28] thank you so much for listening. This [85:30] episode, like so many of our episodes, [85:32] was edited by our incredible team, Dena, [85:35] Svi, [85:37] Sam. I mean, we our team, thank God, has [85:39] been growing. We have so many exciting [85:41] things planned. I'm so grateful for the [85:43] entire team surrounding it. And of [85:45] course, if you enjoyed this episode or [85:46] any of our episodes, please subscribe, [85:48] rate, review, tell your friends about [85:50] it. And of course, you can also donate [85:53] at 1840.org. That's 184018 [85:56] foy.org/donate. [85:58] /donate. All of these efforts, whether [86:01] it's subscribing to a YouTube channel, [86:03] to the podcast, sending in a little bit [86:05] of money, however you express your [86:07] support, it all really helps us reach [86:09] new listeners and continue to put out [86:12] great content. You can also leave us a [86:14] voicemail with feedback or questions [86:16] that we may play on a future episode. [86:18] And something tells me that it is coming [86:20] soon. Our voicemail box is 2125821840. [86:25] Once again, that number is 2125821840. [86:29] If you'd like to learn more about this [86:31] topic or some of the other great ones [86:32] we've covered in the past, be sure to [86:34] check out 1840.org. That's 18fty.org. [86:38] 1840.org where you can also find videos, [86:41] articles, recommended readings, and [86:42] weekly emails. Thank you so much for [86:45] listening and stay curious, my friends. [87:02] Heat. Heat.
