Transcript [00:00] Now, would you view Israel being back in [00:02] the land as a fulfillment of prophecy? [00:04] >> The modern-day state of Israel is a [00:06] [music] secular state. I don't think [00:08] it's automatic that we should see the [00:10] secular modern [music] state of Israel [00:12] as the heirs of those covenant promises. [00:14] >> People might think we mean Old Testament [00:16] Israel [00:17] >> and [music] that this isn't that. [00:19] >> Carmen is making an assumption that I [00:22] think is seriously [music] problematic. [00:23] It's seriously flawed. [00:30] Is modernday Israel a fulfillment of [00:33] prophecy? I'm here with Dr. [music] Seth [00:36] Postel, the dean of Israel College of [00:38] the Bible. My name is Ellie Khaov. I'm a [00:40] lecturer at Israel College of the Bible. [00:42] And today we're going to talk about this [00:45] very important and provocative [00:47] questions. So set recently it was [00:51] claimed in a podcast by Shan Mcdal and [00:55] Carmen IMS that because Israel does not [00:58] follow God [00:59] it cannot be the fulfillment of [01:01] prophecy. So in in other words to enjoy [01:04] God's uh promises in Israel in in this [01:08] land Israel must be faithful to God and [01:11] because it hasn't happened yet modern [01:14] day Israel is not the fulfillment of [01:15] prophecy. What do you think about that? [01:17] Yeah. So, I saw the podcast and first of [01:19] all, I definitely want to say really [01:21] thank you Sean McDow and also Carmen. I [01:23] really Carmen Carmen Ims is a great Old [01:26] Testament scholar. So, I really [01:27] appreciate um the fact that both of them [01:30] were very clear in their affirmation [01:31] that Israel has a future which is really [01:34] in refreshing in the in a time where [01:37] more and more evangelicals are basically [01:39] questioning Israel's relevancy in the [01:42] program of God. And so in that sense, I [01:44] definitely I see the podcast that they [01:46] did was very encouraging. Um but here's [01:49] where I definitely think we need to uh [01:51] address uh Carmen's claims. Okay? And [01:54] it's it's important. So again, that you [01:56] know the argument is that yes, she saw [01:59] that the the promises to Israel are [02:00] unconditional in that sense. And yet she [02:04] argued that you know, modern Israel uh [02:07] established in 1948. [02:09] uh there was a question as to the name [02:11] whether it would even be called Israel [02:12] or not, right? [02:13] >> Many of the founders of Israel were [02:15] either secular or you know they didn't [02:17] believe in God or they were you know so [02:19] how can modern Israel be a fulfillment [02:21] of prophecy? And so she assumed based on [02:23] certain passages of esqueological [02:25] promises that only you know when Israel [02:27] believes they'll be brought back to the [02:29] land and here's where I find that [02:30] there's a there's kind of a flaw in the [02:32] thinking here. So I wanted to address it [02:34] and it actually has to do with, you [02:36] know, again, how do we read scripture? [02:39] Are there rules of interpretation? So [02:42] >> here's what I would say. If you look at [02:45] Micah chapter 5, according to Micah [02:47] chapter 5, where's the Messiah supposed [02:50] to be born? [02:51] >> Bethlehem. [02:51] >> Bethlehem. So the question is, is that a [02:53] literal Bethlehem or a spiritual [02:55] Bethlehem? [02:56] >> Matthew seems to suggest that it's [02:57] literal. Right. [02:58] >> Right. It's not a spiritual Bethlehem. [03:00] It's a literal Bethlehem. So, here's [03:02] what's really interesting from a [03:03] literary standpoint. I and I would [03:05] imagine Carmen would agree with me. The [03:07] scholars actually see that that there is [03:10] a a uniting of these books together. So, [03:12] Michael Shepard in his commentary on the [03:14] on the 12 minor prophets, he brings that [03:16] out. It's hard to deny that there's some [03:18] kind of literary unity. So, the question [03:20] then becomes, okay, so if I'm looking at [03:22] the book of the 12 as a book, and I'm [03:24] looking at Micah and I say, Micah [03:26] chapter 5, literal Bethlehem. So we come [03:29] to Zechariah 12, Zechariah chapter 14. [03:32] So then the question is the Messiah is [03:34] coming to where he's returning to the [03:37] Mount of Olives. So now my question is [03:39] this is that a literal mount of olives [03:42] or a spiritual mount of olives [03:44] [laughter] [03:44] you know how how do we how do we you [03:47] know how do we decide like [03:48] >> yeah we cannot pick and choose okay that [03:50] one that place is literal but this place [03:52] is figurative or something. So my [03:54] question to Carmen would be or to any [03:55] Bible scholar, okay, why is it that [03:57] Micah chapter 5 is a literal Bethlehem, [04:00] but Zechariah 14 is a spiritual Mount of [04:04] Olives? Okay, in other words, [04:07] interpretively speaking, I need to [04:08] understand why would that be a [04:10] spiritualization of a unique place in in [04:14] God's geography. Okay, let's grant that [04:17] Jesus is coming back to the Mount of [04:19] Olives. Okay. So if we've assumed and I [04:22] think it's a correct assumption [04:23] interpretively, in other words, explain [04:25] to me why one has to be spiritual when [04:27] the other one is physical. Okay. So if [04:30] that's the case that it's a literal [04:32] Mount of Olives, then we have to take a [04:34] pan back and say, okay, then if that's [04:36] the case, why is Yeshua, why is Jesus [04:39] returning? He's returning to a people [04:41] that need salvation. In other words, the [04:45] minor prophets assume a time when Israel [04:48] will be back in the land and the Messiah [04:50] will come at a time when they they don't [04:53] recognize him. In other words, Zechariah [04:56] 12, right, and Revelation chapter 1 [04:58] understands Zechariah 12 is something [05:00] future, something will be fulfilled [05:01] fulfilled in the future. Zechariah 14, [05:04] when the Messiah returns, it's then when [05:07] the Jewish people will finally recognize [05:10] their Messiah. Right. [05:11] >> Okay. Uh, in other words, let's say it [05:15] this way. [05:16] Zachchariah's esquetology assumes a [05:19] reathering when Israel will be in the [05:21] land as unbelievers. [05:23] Assumes a period in time when Israel [05:25] will be hated by all nations. [05:28] Surprise, surprise. And assumes that [05:31] it's at that time when Israel's back in [05:34] the land that they will accept Yeshua as [05:36] the Messiah. Which means Carmen's [05:39] argument that uh the Bible assumes that [05:42] only when Israel is uh faithful to God [05:45] will they be back in the land and [05:47] therefore modern Israel has nothing to [05:50] do with fulfillment of prophecy is [05:52] flawed. Now can we prove that modern [05:55] Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy? Of [05:57] course we can't. But that's not the [05:59] issue. The issue from my perspective is [06:01] that Carmen is making an assumption that [06:04] I think is seriously problematic. It's [06:06] seriously flawed. And and that's what I [06:08] just simply want to say. So again, I [06:10] don't detract from the fact that I [06:12] deeply respect Carmen. I I I you know, [06:15] the podcast was very well. It was done [06:18] with humility. But I think the claim [06:21] that Israel h you know, modern Israel is [06:24] not biblical Israel I think is is [06:26] seriously flawed on the basis of [06:28] argumentation. [06:28] >> In other words, we are not claiming that [06:30] there is this prophecy that says Israel [06:32] is going to be reathered in 1948. you [06:35] know it's going to be here but we are [06:38] saying that there are prophecies that [06:40] presuppose that the nation of Israel is [06:43] here [06:43] >> yes in unbelief [06:45] >> in unbelief and come to repentance right [06:47] >> correct [06:48] >> okay set another claim was made and that [06:51] is that there is this continuity between [06:53] the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 12 and [06:56] the Mosaic covenant and there's this [06:58] tension here I see because the Abrahamic [07:01] covenant seems to be unconditional but [07:04] mo the mosaic covenants seems to be [07:05] conditional. And so on the one hand, the [07:09] promise is unconditional. Yes, Israel is [07:11] going to possess the land. [07:13] On the other hand, when you look at the [07:15] Mosaic covenant, the the possession of [07:18] the land is conditioned on Israel's [07:20] faithfulness. So, how do you reconcile [07:22] that? [07:22] >> Yeah. So, let me just simply say it was [07:24] interesting to watch her with Shawn [07:26] McDow. Um, they they obviously disagree [07:29] in terms of their understanding of the [07:31] relationship between the new covenant [07:32] and the Sinai covenant. And I would [07:33] argue I'm I'm here with Sean and I would [07:36] argue that you know that the Sinai [07:38] covenant is definitely conditional [07:40] whereas the Abrahamic covenant is [07:42] unconditional. And I realize that's a [07:44] really a debated issue among [07:45] theologians, biblical theologians. But I [07:48] do find it interesting that within the [07:49] Hebrew Bible that whenever the prophets [07:52] appeal to God on behalf of Israel in [07:57] terms of in terms of their, you know, [07:59] they're in a situation of covenantal [08:01] disobedience. Okay. And there's an [08:03] appeal to God to be faithful. There's [08:06] always an appeal to the Abrahamic [08:07] covenant and never an appeal to the [08:09] Sinai covenant. That's that's [08:11] interesting, right? [08:12] >> So that's the first thing. In other [08:13] words, they the prophets themselves seem [08:16] to be seeing the Abrahamic covenant as [08:19] completely unconditional. Whereas the [08:22] Sinai covenant seems to come with [08:23] conditions. That's number one. Number [08:24] two, uh, at least the way I understand [08:28] the book of Hebrews is that the Sinai [08:30] covenant and the new covenant are [08:32] different covenants, right? And so, you [08:34] know, they're different covenants. They [08:36] have a different priesthood. They've got [08:37] a different they've got a different [08:38] sacrifices. [08:40] And so, also there, I would argue with [08:42] Carmen's reading that the Sinai covenant [08:44] is a conditioned covenant. Uh, it it it [08:48] is in some sense related to the [08:49] Abrahamic covenant, but it's a [08:50] conditional covenant, whereas the new [08:52] covenant is a new covenant. But here's [08:54] another thing that I think is really [08:56] worth pointing out in terms of the ways [08:58] in which the Hebrew the prophets appeal [09:00] to the unconditionality of the sign of [09:04] sorry of the Abrahamic covenant. Paul [09:06] does the same thing. So if you look at [09:08] his argument in Romans chapter 9 [09:10] through11 I realize that people make a [09:13] big deal out of Romans 9:6 for they are [09:16] not all Israel Israel or descended from [09:18] Israel. And that's where people want to [09:21] kind of force Paul into saying that the [09:24] church is the new Israel. I think the [09:26] problem is it's not a close enough [09:28] reading of the text because what does he [09:30] do? he defines his terms is he takes you [09:32] know he kind of defines the Israel uh [09:36] from Abraham to Isaac from Isaac to [09:39] Jacob and basically argues that Jacob [09:44] uh was chosen in the womb when when when [09:47] Jacob and Esau were together in the womb [09:49] before they'd done anything good or [09:51] anything bad but just in terms of God's [09:54] election God chose Jacob and when when [09:58] he quotes then Malachi Jacob I love [10:00] Esau. I hate it. It's clear that he's [10:01] not talking about the individual. He's [10:03] talking about the nations, Edom as a [10:05] nation, Jacob as the nation of Israel. [10:07] And the point then, why does he cite [10:09] this and and bring it to Jacob? The [10:11] point is is that if Jacob as a nation [10:13] was chosen unconditionally without any [10:16] kind of connection to works, good or [10:18] bad, then that means that the [10:21] descendants of Jacob cannot lose their [10:23] election. They cannot. Covenant [10:26] disobedience included. Now, why would I [10:28] argue that's the best interpretation of [10:30] that passage? Because that's exactly how [10:32] the passage ends because then in Romans [10:34] 11 28 and 29, and it's worth reading. He [10:37] says, "From the standpoint of the [10:39] gospel, they i.e. the nation of Israel, [10:43] right? They are enemies for your [10:46] benefit, for your sake." Paul said [10:48] salvation has come to the, you know, [10:49] because of Israel's disobedience, the [10:51] rejection, salvation has come to the [10:52] Gentiles. So, indeed, they're enemies of [10:54] the gospel for your benefit. Okay? But [10:57] then he goes on to say, "But from the [10:58] standpoint of God's election, God's [11:01] choice, they are beloved for the sake of [11:05] the fathers." It's clear here he's [11:09] talking about a national election. In [11:10] other words, you he's saying that [11:13] there's a people that are enemies of the [11:15] gospel, [11:16] right? That are still elected because of [11:19] the choice of the fathers, the beloved [11:21] from the choice of the fathers. For the [11:23] gifts and the calling of God are [11:24] irrevocable. So the point being that [11:28] whereas Israel has f failed under the [11:31] conditions of the Mosaic covenant which [11:33] is I think Paul's point in Romans 1 [11:36] through3 the the law they're condemned [11:38] under the Sinai covenant but that [11:42] doesn't mean that they've lost their [11:43] election. And in fact even the nation [11:45] that has not received their promised [11:49] Messiah Paul insists that the promises [11:52] and the elections still stand. the [11:54] national election. And so going back to [11:56] Carmen, I would argue, listen, um Paul [11:59] doesn't appeal to the unconditionality [12:02] of the Mosaic covenant to insist that [12:05] Israel's election is unconditional and [12:07] still stands today. He appeals to the [12:09] Abrahamic covenant. [12:10] >> So in other words, you're saying Romans [12:13] 9:6 when he talks about when it says [12:15] that not all Israel are Israel, it's not [12:18] actually it's not actually expanding the [12:21] meaning of Israel. Rather, you're saying [12:24] >> he's defining it on the basis of [12:26] election. I mean, that's really [12:28] important. He's not he's not creating a [12:30] new Israel. He's not expanding a new [12:32] Israel. He's not saying that there's a [12:34] spiritual Israel here because Jacob [12:37] wasn't chosen on the basis of him being [12:40] a believer. Like they want to argue [12:42] that, you know, that the new Israel is [12:45] on the basis of being believers like [12:48] everybody that's a believer in Jesus. [12:49] But that's not how he defines Jacob. [12:52] Jacob is elected simply on the basis of [12:55] God's election without any regards to [12:58] his good works, bad works, whether he [13:00] believes or he doesn't believe. And so I [13:02] think that's his point. So the whole of [13:04] Romans 9 through11 is framed with [13:06] Israel's election remains secure because [13:09] Jacob didn't do anything to receive it [13:12] and therefore he can't do anything to [13:14] lose it. And then you pointed out that [13:15] Romans 11 how it ends when he talks [13:18] about the election there. It's negated [13:21] with the gospel, right? Because it's not [13:23] about it's not election to salvation or [13:25] something or spiritual. It's election [13:27] towards vocation or [13:29] >> correct. It's a national election and [13:31] it's rooted not in the Sinai covenant. [13:33] >> Right. [13:33] >> Right. They're condemned under the Sinai [13:35] covenant. Right. That's Paul's point. [13:38] Salvation is through Yeshua. But [13:41] Israel's n national election is [13:42] irrevocable because it's tied to God's [13:45] unconditional election of Jacob. [13:47] >> Okay, good. Let's go back um to talk [13:51] about modern day Israel because you know [13:53] many many today are dismissive of is of [13:56] modern day Israel. It's not the biblical [13:58] Israel. But let's talk about our [14:00] experience here as as Jews who live here [14:02] in Israel. What what is God doing here? [14:04] What I find to be really interesting, [14:05] Ellie, is that, you know, believers are [14:09] following a lot on the news and they're [14:11] watching, you know, things going on in, [14:13] you know, in the land of Israel and the [14:14] conflict. But I think what many [14:16] believers simply don't know and and [14:18] perhaps Carmen wasn't even aware when [14:20] she she, you know, she argues that [14:21] modern Israel is not biblical Israel [14:25] again is what's actually going on here. [14:27] And so, let's talk about it. So for [14:28] instance, [14:30] one of the things that we're watching is [14:33] a resurgence of real hunger for the [14:35] gospel. So we have a a YouTube channel [14:38] that's only for Hebrew speakers. Right. [14:40] >> Right. You you do many videos or many [14:42] videos where we're explaining the gospel [14:44] in Hebrew to Israelis. Now [14:46] >> we just this week crossed over a million [14:51] subscribers. We have over a million [14:53] subscribers [14:55] in a Hebrew alone YouTube channel. [14:58] >> And just to give a context in Israel, [15:00] that means that it's one of the most [15:02] followed YouTube channel [15:04] >> in all of Israel. Like like if you look [15:07] at all the biggest YouTube channels in [15:09] Israel, [15:11] >> there's a YouTube channel that's devoted [15:14] to sharing the gospel in Hebrew. I think [15:17] there's only what, like 9 million Hebrew [15:19] speakers in the world. [15:21] We have a YouTube channel over a million [15:24] followers with people constantly writing [15:26] us and asking us questions and we're [15:28] watching every week Israelis coming to [15:30] faith Israelis. So to dismiss Israel [15:35] it's not even a part of God's plan. So [15:37] let's even say that Israel modern Israel [15:39] isn't a fulfillment of mo of of of [15:41] prophecy. Okay, we would disagree. But [15:44] why not get excited about what God's [15:47] actually doing here in reaching [15:49] Israelis? That's number one. Number two, [15:51] and I think what people fail to realize [15:53] in criticizing Israel, believers that [15:55] are criticizing Israel, [15:58] they fail to realize that Israel still [16:01] is it's a democracy where we actually [16:03] have freedom of religion. Not only [16:05] freedom of religion, we have even [16:07] freedom to change our religion. Now, why [16:09] is that significant? That means it's the [16:11] only country in the Middle East where [16:14] Muslims [16:15] are free to come become followers of [16:18] Jesus. And a whole component of our [16:20] ministry here is outreach to Muslims. We [16:23] have a Facebook devoted to sharing the [16:25] gospel with Arabs and Arabic speakers [16:28] and Muslims. We have, I believe to date, [16:32] 414,000 [16:33] subscribers. We've had people from all [16:36] over the Middle East contacting us. [16:38] We've had imams [16:41] coming to faith in Jesus. people from [16:43] Gaza, people from all over the West [16:45] Bank, people that after they come to [16:47] faith in Jesus are at risk from their [16:51] for their very lives. And these are the [16:52] same people that are coming to faith in [16:54] Gaza, that are coming to faith in the [16:56] West Bank, that don't have the freedoms [16:58] that we have in Israel that would give [17:00] anything to come and live in Israel [17:03] where they could freely live their faith [17:05] as followers of Jesus. And so I think [17:08] when we when people believers are so [17:11] critical of Israel, they failed to [17:13] realize that God is actually really at [17:16] work here, they ought to be very excited [17:18] about the great commission in the land [17:21] of Israel and from the land of Israel, [17:23] >> you know. And there's also this myth [17:24] that Israel is persecuting Christians [17:27] and and and Jews here hate Christians [17:30] and they spit on them on the streets. So [17:32] let's address those um those claims. I [17:35] mean for for instance this idea or claim [17:38] of of uh hatred towards Christians. [17:41] Where does this come from? [17:42] >> Yeah. So it's really important. I mean [17:45] it's obviously let's go back to [17:47] Zechariah. Okay. Let's go back to [17:50] Zechariah assumes a time when Israel [17:51] will be here in unbelief. So it's true [17:54] that our our people as a nation, our [17:57] leaders did not accept Jesus. We've had [18:00] a terrible history. There's been a [18:01] terrible history of persecution, right? [18:04] The church has done some horrific things [18:06] to Jews in Jesus' name. Okay. Is there a [18:09] history of persecution? Of course there [18:10] is. Does our nation love Jesus? [18:15] Of course they don't. Is there a remnant [18:17] of Jews who love Jesus? Here we're [18:19] sitting right here, right? We love [18:21] Jesus. And so I I don't know why people [18:25] would expect that as a nation that we're [18:28] going to love somebody that we has yet [18:31] we have yet to recognize as the Messiah. [18:34] It is clear that that at times [18:36] Christians are mistreated and we have [18:38] these videos. We can't deny the fact [18:40] that the there was a nun that was beaten [18:43] up. It was horrific. there was a soldier [18:48] that defaced the statue of of Jesus. [18:52] It's horrific. It we condemn that, [18:54] right? That that that's those are [18:57] despicable actions. But but what ends up [19:01] happening is that becomes sort of the [19:03] narrative. In other words, the [19:04] despicable actions of a few people then [19:07] become sort of supporting of this false [19:09] narrative that all of Israel is like [19:11] that. And what they failed to realize is [19:14] that Israel is still a democracy. I [19:15] mean, here we are, two Jews, Israelis [19:18] sitting in Israel talking about Jesus on [19:21] we have total freedom here. [19:23] >> In other words, it doesn't represent the [19:24] policy of Israel. By the way, those [19:26] soldiers were punished. [19:27] >> Yes. [19:28] >> It doesn't represent even the society of [19:30] Israel. I mean, true, there is this [19:33] there is this uh group who are very uh [19:36] radical. We have many groups in Israel [19:38] who who who oppose um the the gospel. [19:41] But it doesn't even represent the [19:43] society. I mean, look at your neighbors. [19:45] Your neighbors are opposed to what [19:46] you're doing here. [19:47] >> My neighbors see me on Facebook all the [19:49] Facebook on YouTube all the time and [19:51] they ask me about it. So far, they've [19:53] never beaten me up. Right. And so, in [19:56] this sense, I'm I don't walk around [19:57] afraid that somebody's going to kill me [19:59] even though my face goes across, you [20:01] know, all over YouTube. All over [20:04] YouTube. And I'm I'm not afraid for my [20:06] life. And so, Israel still is. It's a [20:09] democracy. we're we're protected. [20:11] There's freedom of religion. There's [20:12] freedom to change our religion. And so [20:15] in that sense, I think there tends to be [20:18] a like a focus on like like a mad [20:21] obsession where you're looking for any [20:24] evidence to prove a narrative. Okay. And [20:27] what they also fail to realize is that [20:29] okay, so we have sometimes, you know, [20:32] maybe people that spit on us, but what [20:35] about the Muslims who come to faith in [20:38] Jesus in Syria? What about the Muslims [20:40] who come to faith in Lebanon? What about [20:43] the Muslims who come to faith in Iran? [20:45] What about the Muslims who come to faith [20:47] in our Arab neighbors? What freedoms do [20:50] they have? What protections? They're not [20:51] spit on. They're just killed. And what [20:54] about all the persecution of Christians, [20:57] actual Christians and Drews in all the [21:00] neighboring countries? There's zero [21:02] freedom of religion there. Zero [21:04] opportunity for the truth, the church to [21:07] expand and to grow among Muslims and the [21:10] neighbor the neighboring countries. [21:12] Who's the only country in the Middle [21:14] East actually encouraging church growth [21:16] among Muslims among our neighbors? [21:18] Israeli Jewish followers of Jesus. And [21:21] so I think people fail to recognize that [21:24] actually if you're a supporter of the [21:26] gospel, actually if you love the great [21:28] commission, of course you're going to [21:29] support Israel. If you long to see [21:31] Muslims come to faith, support Israel. [21:35] Okay. One last thing, said it's [21:36] important that we do talk about the [21:39] aliyah. When when when Jews come to [21:41] Israel, it's claimed that they cannot [21:45] make an aliyah. cannot come here unless [21:48] they deny their belief in Yeshua in [21:50] Jesus. [21:51] >> Okay? So again, let's be honest as a [21:54] nation, our people don't accept Jesus as [21:57] the Messiah. And so one of the things [21:59] that is kind of been a defining, [22:02] you know, a defining factor of who's a [22:04] Jew and who isn't within our people is [22:07] faith in Jesus, right? You can, if you [22:09] put your faith in Jesus, you've joined [22:11] another religion. you're no no longer [22:13] Jewish, which obviously is there's a [22:16] problem thinking there. Why? Because [22:17] typically your Jewishness is not tied to [22:20] what you believe. It's your ethnicity, [22:23] right? It's your ethnicity. That's what [22:25] Hitler did is he killed Jews regardless [22:27] of what they believe. And usually when [22:29] Jews make aliyah, it doesn't matter if [22:31] they're atheist, right? Doesn't matter [22:33] if they're Buddhist. But yes, there is [22:37] Jewish believers as believers, right? [22:42] cannot make aliyah. They can't [22:44] immigrate. That is true. There's no lie [22:46] about that. That's true. And it breaks [22:47] our heart. It grieves us, of course, but [22:50] again, let's face it, our nation has yet [22:54] to look upon him whom they've pierced. [22:57] That said, and this is really important, [23:00] Jewish believers here in Israel have [23:02] full freedom. We are completely [23:05] protected under law, and the church is [23:09] growing rapidly. And so in this sense I [23:14] believe that the church absolutely [23:16] should support right a democracy in the [23:20] Middle East where you can act you can [23:23] openly uh engage in the great [23:26] commission. That's one. Number two I [23:28] think it's a it's a matter of prayer. I [23:30] think Christians should be praying, [23:31] "Dear God, please open the eyes of those [23:34] that are making decisions in the [23:36] ministry of interior to understand that [23:39] Jewish people that put their faith in [23:41] Jesus are Jewish, completely Jewish." [23:45] And so, in that sense, we wouldn't want [23:47] to deny that that's true. But again, I [23:50] think typically it's kind of hypers [23:52] sensationalized in order to create this [23:55] narrative that Israel is this evil [23:58] >> anti- persecuting Christian state, which [24:01] it's not. [24:02] >> And and by the way, contrary to some who [24:04] claim the following that we are [24:07] allegedly in a risk of being deported [24:09] because we believe in Jesus, that's [24:11] false. [24:12] >> I mean, we're still here. [24:14] >> Yes. And by the way, with everything [24:16] going on and the growing hatred and and [24:19] where are we going to go, [24:20] >> right? [24:21] >> It's it's the only place as Jewish [24:23] followers of Jesus where we can openly [24:26] be Jewish followers of Jesus. So Ellie [24:29] and another thing that really needs to [24:31] be stated in terms of the whole issue of [24:33] immigration and so the Ministry of [24:35] Interior [24:37] uh it it typically is kind of like those [24:40] that are responsible for Jewish [24:42] immigration, they they typically [24:44] represent a a minority position of what [24:47] most Israelis think. Now they they do [24:49] have power, right? They do make a [24:51] decision who comes and who doesn't come. [24:52] >> Orthodox party. [24:53] >> Yeah. But here's the reality is that [24:56] most Israelis if they actually hear, [24:58] "Wait a minute, like you, a Jewish [25:01] person who believes in Jesus can't make [25:02] aliyah. They can't." They're shocked and [25:05] they'd be opposed to it. In other words, [25:07] my neighbors have never once questioned [25:09] my Jewishness. I've never No, the [25:12] average Israeli would say, "Okay, we [25:14] don't agree with you, but they would [25:16] never think that we're not Jewish." And [25:18] so even here again there's a a tendency [25:21] to kind of have an narrative in in [25:24] people already have this narrative that [25:25] you know Israel is terrible they hate [25:26] Christians and and then they focus on [25:29] these specific issues and they turn that [25:31] into the narrative ah that's what all [25:32] Israelis think which is just simply not [25:34] true. [25:35] >> Okay Seth let's wrap it up. Is modernday [25:38] Israel the fulfillment of prophecy? [25:41] >> Yes. So, in wrapping it up, I would just [25:43] simply say um here's where we disagree [25:46] with with Professor Kimmes, and that is [25:50] is she dismisses the possibility because [25:52] she argues that Israel has to be [25:54] covenantally faithful in order to enjoy [25:56] the promises. But what we're arguing is [25:59] that that's not exactly the picture that [26:01] the scriptures give. that given [26:03] Bethlehem as a literal Bethlehem, then [26:05] the Mount of Olives is a literal Mount [26:07] of Olives, which means that the [26:09] scriptures assume that Israel will be [26:12] back in the land as unbelievers and only [26:15] then the Messiah will return and they'll [26:17] understand ah he is our savior. So we're [26:20] arguing that uh Carmens presents a [26:24] picture that I think is not entirely [26:26] accurate to scripture. Okay, that's the [26:28] first thing. The second thing we would [26:30] look at the Abrahamic covenant um as [26:33] something completely unconditional [26:35] regardless of Israel's obedience or [26:37] disobedience, right? And so we talked [26:39] about the distinction between what I [26:41] would argue the Sinai covenant and the [26:43] Abrahamic covenant or the new covenant [26:44] as unc unconditional covenants. But I'd [26:47] say the bottom line, and this is where [26:48] it all lands, and and I think that [26:50] people, [26:52] believers who love the Lord and believe [26:53] that they're saved by grace and believe [26:55] that God God's love is unconditional, [26:57] for whatever reason, they want to turn [26:59] God's love for the Jewish people [music] [27:01] is conditional. I realize that people [27:03] are looking at Israel today and they're [27:05] only focused on certain [music] things, [27:07] but what they fail to see is in in the [27:10] midst of a lot of turmoil and a lot of [27:12] hurt and a lot of challenges [27:15] that God is at work. And that [music] [27:17] shows that God is faithful. And [27:19] believers ought to be incredibly [27:20] encouraged that God is faithful [music] [27:23] to his promises to all of us. Amen.
