Transcript [00:04] [music] [00:18] On the 25th 27th of October, Israeli [00:22] citizens will go to the polls to elect a [00:25] new Knesset, the country's [00:28] 120 member parliament, which will also [00:32] lead to the formation of a new [00:34] government in Israel. [00:36] This will be the first election after [00:40] the deadly terrorist attack by Hamas on [00:43] October 7, 2023 [00:46] and will give an indication of what [00:49] political direction Israel will take in [00:53] coming years. [00:56] But it's not only in Israel that [01:00] there will be elections for a new [01:03] government in the coming months and [01:05] years. Also in Europe, three of the [01:09] largest EU member states, France, Italy, [01:12] and Spain will have general elections in [01:16] 2027. [01:19] How will these elections affect or even [01:23] change AUI Israel relations over time? [01:27] To discuss this question in our program, [01:31] we have us with us in the European [01:34] Parliament in Brussels, Danish MEP [01:38] Christopher Storm, a member of the [01:41] European Conservative and Reformist [01:43] Group [01:45] since 2024. [01:48] and European Coalition for Israel [01:50] founding director Thomas Sandel. Thank [01:53] you for joining me. [01:56] >> My name is Yosilovich and this is the [01:59] European Report. I will start with you [02:02] MEP Storm. Uh as I mentioned in my [02:05] introduction, many uh major EU member [02:09] states will have an election year next [02:12] year in 2027. [02:15] As for Denmark, you already had your [02:18] general elections this year in April, I [02:20] think. [02:21] >> Yeah, it was in March. [02:22] >> In March. Yeah. Uh, can you tell us [02:25] about the current government in Denmark [02:28] and how it is positioned in relations to [02:32] Israel and the Middle East? In fact, we [02:35] would like to know uh is Denmark living [02:39] up to its reputation as generally a [02:42] friend of Israel? I hope we do and I and [02:46] I would say yes to that. Um I think the [02:48] new government's position in the Middle [02:51] East and the position um to Israel is [02:54] the same as the the government we had [02:56] before. We had a center-left government [02:58] before. Now we have a more more leftwing [03:01] uh government, but the the biggest party [03:04] and in the government and the prime [03:07] minister, she's the same person. And the [03:09] the fortune minister is also the same. [03:12] He's from another party. He's from a [03:13] center-left party. And I think nothing [03:16] has changed there. What's new in in this [03:19] government um is that the two new [03:21] parties, there's two new parties in in [03:23] the government. They are more leftwing [03:25] and they have a a history of being more [03:29] criticizing against um the state of [03:32] Israel. Uh but I still believe that this [03:35] government will continue the same line [03:37] as we used to see. But what makes me a [03:40] little afraid still when it comes to our [03:43] friendship with Israel in Denmark is [03:45] that um we have it's not a a majority [03:48] government. We have to make is a [03:49] minority government. So they they have [03:51] to make a alliance and the the biggest [03:55] supporter is a very far-lft wing party [03:58] called in this list and this party has [04:02] some historical uh very very close bonds [04:06] uh to organizations who supports Hamas [04:10] >> and we it's actually um documented that [04:14] they even gave financial support to one [04:16] of the organizations who was active in [04:18] the October 7 attack. So that's a for me [04:23] to see a big problem that the government [04:25] needs to rely on their votes when it [04:28] comes to um the position in the Middle [04:31] East. uh but at least I I believe that [04:35] the government have the same position as [04:37] we used to and of course the position [04:38] where we are part of we will will we [04:42] will always be there and make sure that [04:44] the government is at the at the right [04:46] position [04:47] >> because we saw during the war in Gaza [04:50] the prime minister of Denmark met the [04:52] federation very critical towards Israel [04:55] is there a difference between the prime [04:57] minister and the foreign minister like [04:59] in some countries there there are [05:00] >> that's a But I think that the line of [05:03] them is almost the same. And yeah, she [05:05] she became critical in the in the [05:07] beginning. She was very silent. [05:09] >> Yes. [05:10] >> But then we became close to to election [05:13] and then she become to be more become [05:15] more and more [05:16] criticizing Israel's position. I think [05:19] it was because of the election and it [05:21] was a tactic because he was afraid to [05:23] lose voters to the left because the left [05:25] was very vocal about the criticism of [05:28] Israel and was let's be honest there's a [05:31] lot of um of Muslim voters in Denmark as [05:34] well and I think she was afraid of [05:36] losing too many voters if she was [05:38] supporting Israel [05:39] >> coalitions probably that's it okay [05:42] Thomas Sandel uh the upcoming general [05:45] elections in Israel will certainly [05:47] affect Israel's relations with Europe uh [05:52] in the coming years. What are your own [05:55] reflections ahead of uh the elections on [05:59] the 27th of October? Uh I mean how can [06:03] the European Union play a real [06:06] constructive role in the weeks leading [06:10] up to the 27th of October? Uh is there [06:14] any uh uh because we we see now issues [06:18] like uh calls for still calls for uh uh [06:22] boycots uh against goods from the [06:26] disputed uh territories. We see also [06:29] calls for uh suspending the AUIsrael [06:32] association agreement. Uh is this uh [06:36] constructive? [06:37] >> Obviously it's not constructive at all. [06:41] Um, I think what what Europe should [06:44] really focus on is to u use it leverage [06:48] in uh trying to make sure that there's a [06:51] dradicalization within Palestinian [06:54] society as a whole. Uh because only then [06:57] is there any future for for uh uh peace [07:02] negotiations if we want to use that term [07:05] between Israel and and the Palestinians. [07:08] Um, I also think that the EU has a role [07:12] to play when it comes to disarming [07:14] Hamas, disarming. [07:17] Um, and uh, I think to constructively to [07:21] play a bigger role looking at the the [07:25] whole picture in normalization between [07:28] Lebanon and Israel, which now has never [07:31] been as u uh potentially that we can see [07:35] a diplomatic breakthrough. And and you [07:37] know when we recall the history of [07:39] Lebanon as a creation from 1920 in San [07:42] Remo under the French mandate, I think [07:45] the French in particular should have [07:48] reasons to see a flourishing Lebanon as [07:51] as they used to call Beirut the Paris of [07:53] the Middle East. So the EU has a lot [07:56] that they can do. They have even a lot [07:58] in their toolbox and they shouldn't [08:00] focus on u on on negatives. Let let me [08:04] say when it comes to Israeli election, I [08:07] think Europe also need to understand [08:09] that we are now dealing with a different [08:11] Israel post October 7. Um there is of [08:16] course both in Israel and in Europe uh [08:18] Netanyahu derangement syndrome. So it's [08:20] only about BBB for BB against BB. I [08:24] think what people don't realize is that [08:26] that Prime Minister Netanyahu has been a [08:30] a moderating force in Israel over the [08:33] last uh three years. And when you look [08:35] at the alternatives, and I'm not saying [08:38] one is right or the other is wrong, but [08:40] but some of his opponents like Naftali [08:43] Bennett would have taken much tougher [08:45] measures both when it relates to Iran [08:48] and when it relates to Gaza. So Europe [08:51] should not live in this illusion that [08:53] there is the problem is Netanyahu and [08:56] anything but Netanyahu would so somehow [09:00] reset the relations with with Europe. I [09:02] think Europe has to realize um Israel [09:06] post October 7, 2023 [09:09] is a much more realistic country. the [09:12] citizens require uh expect of their [09:15] government to u um ensure that they can [09:19] live in safety and security and Europe [09:22] has to deal with it. [09:24] >> So security is in will be and is still [09:28] the main issue uh in Israel. [09:32] >> Exactly. And as I said this is the first [09:34] election after October 7. So as much as [09:37] there are other issues but you know if [09:40] they can't live in security you know [09:42] nothing else matters. [09:44] >> I always say that Israel doesn't live in [09:47] Benelus you know it's not the same [09:49] situation [09:49] >> or in Copenhagen definitely does [09:53] >> MEP storm uh we we just spoke about [09:57] elections in Israel. Is there such a [10:00] thing an ideal election outcome in [10:02] Israel uh for Europe? I mean uh we we [10:06] just spoke about uh for BBB or antiBB [10:11] but in general you you are following the [10:14] the situation the political situation. [10:18] >> I I don't think it's my job to to say [10:21] what the Israelian people should vote. [10:23] Uh so from my perspective there's no [10:27] ideal outcome as long as the outcome is [10:30] that that the Israeli people get the [10:32] government that they want. And of [10:34] course, as a as an European citizens, I [10:37] hope that we'll elect a government who [10:39] wants to cooperate with us and that we [10:42] can um do whatever we can to to [10:44] strengthen our our relationship again. [10:47] Um but for me, it's not up to me, I say, [10:51] to to decide what's uh best for the [10:54] Israeli people. It's up to them. But [10:57] there are are there red lines for Europe [11:01] which could uh be uh affecting AUI [11:05] Israel relations in the future? [11:07] >> Yeah. Are there red lines? You spoke [11:08] about [11:09] >> not for me. Uh there's no red lines for [11:12] me. But I of course if this but if the [11:15] Israeli people decides to to elect a a [11:20] more right-wing government as they have [11:22] today, it's my fear that the left wing [11:26] here in the parliament and in the [11:28] streets of Europe and in the parliaments [11:30] of Europe will turn around against [11:34] Israel because they [11:35] >> even more [11:36] >> even more than they do now. Yeah, [11:38] actually exactly. Um, but I don't think [11:42] we should do that because we have to um [11:46] to accept the people of of Israel what [11:49] they want and uh just be happy that [11:51] Israel is the only democracy in the [11:52] Middle East and we should support that. [11:54] Neither if they go to the right or to [11:56] the to the to the left. But of course, [11:59] I'm a little afraid about how the left [12:00] wings in Europe will act. And and it's [12:02] of course always them who makes the [12:04] troubles. Uh it's not the democracy [12:06] that's the problem. is the left wing who [12:08] cannot accept the the democracy. So [12:11] let's make them a little afraid of our [12:12] our friendship. But I I truly believe [12:14] that they will find some some common [12:16] ground so we can continue to have a a [12:19] relationship that we can help each [12:20] other. [12:21] >> Thomas Sandell uh we know that it takes [12:25] two to tango and the political landscape [12:29] in Europe may also change drastically [12:33] within the next few months. How do you [12:35] think the elections result in France, [12:38] Italy, and Spain could affect AUIsrael [12:42] relations in the coming years? [12:44] >> Yeah, I think to to the list that we [12:46] mentioned, we we can also add Poland. [12:50] >> Um, not to not to forget Finland, of [12:53] course, next year as well. But, um, it [12:56] it means that four out of the five [12:59] largest countries uh may change [13:02] political uh course. But as as you [13:05] mentioned even in Denmark there is of [13:07] course a continuity. So even if a if a [13:10] government there's a new government you [13:12] know the the overall [13:16] uh direction tends to to remain the same [13:20] but um I think there are at least four [13:22] factors that are driving these all of [13:25] these European u uh elections that are [13:27] coming coming up which have uh relevance [13:30] also to Israel. migration, [13:33] um, security, you know, we're in a war [13:36] situation, economy and energy. And I [13:39] think that Israel is relevant in all [13:42] these areas. And um as we've seen the [13:47] trends in u uh in Europe and we [13:50] mentioned the very interesting uh um [13:54] what happened when when your prime [13:55] minister in Denmark was a socialist [13:57] basically was um made a a joint [14:01] statement with Melani basically for a [14:04] tough migration policy. Didn't we [14:07] understand that migration is no longer [14:09] just a fringe issue? It's really at the [14:11] center. That also means that those [14:14] parties that are concerned about the [14:18] changing landscape of of Europe, you [14:21] know, to put it bluntly, the [14:22] Islamization or the growing influence of [14:25] Muslim Brotherhood and other radical [14:27] movements in in Europe, they tend to [14:30] have more understanding of Israel and [14:32] the difficult position that Israel uh [14:35] plays. So in the case of uh Spain, uh [14:39] France, [14:41] um Italy, you know, this will play a [14:44] role and and to the extent that it does, [14:47] I think it will u it will benefit Israel [14:51] and this is also true for for security [14:53] and and you know, we have to remember [14:55] that Europe is in a war with Russia and [14:59] and Ukraine is just one of the front [15:00] lines. there's a hybrid war going on and [15:03] and and God knows where this will stop [15:05] and I say this as a fin with a long [15:07] border with with Russia meaning that [15:11] security cooperation with Israel is uh [15:14] necessity for any future looking [15:17] European country and especially those [15:19] with the border with with Russia. uh and [15:22] and then to add energy in in this uh new [15:26] climate and Israel as a energy um [15:30] producer and with the gas fields in the [15:32] in the Middle East is becoming [15:34] increasingly important for countries [15:35] like Greece and and and that whole uh [15:37] region. So if things go well, I I think [15:42] there could be a a new more uh Israel [15:46] friendly majority in the European [15:49] Council, but nothing can be taken for [15:51] for granted. And we know the forces that [15:54] are against all sorts of rapromo or [15:57] normalization are also very strong. And [15:59] as you mentioned, the the left-wing uh [16:02] um Islamist axis is is very active also [16:07] here in in this chamber. But but there [16:10] is a there is a wakeup call on on the [16:12] issues that I mentioned. And I think to [16:14] the extent that the citizens will will [16:17] react um in a particular way this could [16:20] also change Europe's attitudes towards [16:23] Israel. [16:24] MEP S [16:26] in this conversation we we have also for [16:30] obvious reasons focused mainly on the [16:33] general elections in Israel on the 27th [16:36] of October and in the European Union. [16:39] But there is also this year another [16:42] election which will certainly indirectly [16:46] maybe affect EUI Israel relations as [16:50] well as the the whole future of the [16:52] Middle East. Uh this is the US midterm [16:56] elections in November. Uh how do you see [17:00] the outcome of this midterm elections uh [17:04] affecting the geopolitical situation in [17:07] the Middle East and also indirectly the [17:11] situation in in Israel? Of course we [17:14] have Iran, Gaza, Lebanon and other [17:17] conflicts in the region. [17:21] >> Yeah, that's a very good question. Uh I [17:24] think that um you know a strong [17:28] American commitment to to Israel is very [17:31] essential for for the Middle East and [17:34] for the for the life of the Israeli [17:37] people. So because of that I'm very [17:40] concerned about the the midterm uh [17:43] elections uh because we have seen some [17:46] movement inside the democ the democrat [17:50] party that is um very much against what [17:53] we used to see from from America. But I [17:56] hope that um the more um [18:00] center or focus the more can we call it [18:04] normal political political from from the [18:07] Democrats will win the elections uh and [18:11] not the the leftwing candidates because [18:13] because it's more and most yeah exactly [18:16] and what we can see at the polls right [18:17] now is that the Democrats probably will [18:19] will win most of the of the seats at the [18:22] midterms. Um, but it I still believe as [18:27] I said before when you asked me about [18:29] how the Danish position, the European [18:31] position to Israel, I don't think it [18:32] will change so much about the situation [18:35] right now because that right now America [18:37] is at war with Iran. I don't think that [18:39] will change before the midterm. I hope [18:42] so, but I'm I'm not sure. And I think [18:45] that will continue. And I think every [18:47] president would have done what President [18:50] Trump did against Iran. Is right now a [18:53] lot of Democrats and journalists is [18:55] saying, "Oh, we have never done that." [18:56] But I don't believe that. I don't I [18:58] think it's just a part of the political [18:59] game. We always see that when the [19:01] Democrat president do does something [19:03] when the Republican says, "Oh, no, we [19:05] will never support that." And the other [19:06] way around. Uh so actually I don't think [19:10] it will change so much at the current [19:12] situation. But of course, if America [19:16] turns away from Israel, then Europe [19:18] needs to step up and and take a a bigger [19:22] responsibility um when it comes to to [19:26] secure Israel is defend and uh and talk [19:30] on behalf of Israel, when it come to UN [19:32] and so uh so it will be very interesting [19:35] what the American people decides. But as [19:38] I said when you ask me about the Israeli [19:42] elections, I would say the same here. [19:43] It's up to the Americans to decide what [19:46] what I think is the best direction for [19:47] them. [19:48] >> Of course, Thomas Sandell uh the [19:52] geopolitical [19:54] developments in the world. Uh we saw we [19:57] see Russia and Iran very closely [20:02] aligned. Uh this also affect your [20:05] country Finland. [20:08] uh how has this been taken into [20:11] consideration by the Finnish government [20:14] led by uh Petero [20:17] as Finland formulates its foreign policy [20:22] uh in in the European Union. [20:26] Yeah, it's it it reminds me of a [20:29] anecdote of of uh I think it was the [20:31] previous Israeli ambassador who said [20:33] that you know when you're in Brussels uh [20:36] and you're dealing with NATO and the EU, [20:37] it's like going from Jerusalem to Ramla [20:41] and and the European Union institutions, [20:45] you know, being more like Ramla and NATO [20:48] being so completely [20:50] supportive of Israel. And I think this [20:53] is this is also true for any country but [20:55] Finland in particular that you know [20:58] anyone dealing with defense issues, [21:01] security of Finland, uh all the [21:04] potential scenarios with with Russia. Uh [21:07] there is no partner that they appreciate [21:09] more than Israel. So, as you know, we [21:11] just renewed a 10-year uh defense [21:15] agreement with Russia and uh we are in [21:18] the process of buying David Sling uh [21:21] from um anti- anti- [21:26] missile technology from from Israel and [21:31] um but then then you have then you have [21:37] both in academia and media and I would [21:39] say NGO go certain NOS's unelected [21:42] people uh with sometimes suspicious [21:45] financing you I be open Amnesty [21:49] International has run a very uh negative [21:53] campaign against any relation with [21:56] Israel whatsoever [21:58] and um of course it makes one think what [22:01] why this is such a prior prioritized [22:04] issue when we realize also in Finland [22:07] what is the alternative [22:09] >> and And if Finland is so clearly on the [22:13] side of Ukraine, which is which is the [22:15] case, it shouldn't be difficult to add [22:19] one and one and and see that there is [22:21] this axis then with uh with Iran in [22:24] particular right now and other [22:26] authoritarian countries that we should [22:29] be have a consistent policy. So in the [22:34] closed cabinets in Finland, people who [22:36] understand what is happening, they are [22:39] very closely aligned with Israel, uh but [22:42] I think in the formal rhetoric, you [22:45] know, and and Finland is trying now to [22:46] get a seat in the security council. So [22:50] then you need to appeal to the uh to [22:54] countries which are not always very warm [22:56] towards Israel. So you have like the [22:59] prime minister would say, you know, [23:01] these people who are criticizing me [23:02] openly, they are very friendly with me [23:05] privately and and I think that's also [23:07] the case for for Finland. [23:10] >> MEP Storm, we have just uh began uh a [23:16] new fall season here in the European [23:19] Parliament. MEPs are back to work and [23:23] you have of course a full agenda [23:26] certainly ahead of you. Can you mention [23:29] some of the most critical uh issue [23:32] topics which are currently on the agenda [23:35] uh on in general and in especially in [23:39] relations to Israel. [23:40] >> Yeah, of course. some of the biggest [23:42] agendas right now here in the parliament [23:43] is is the budget uh is and um [23:48] and of course also the war in in in [23:51] Ukraine but also the war in in Iran and [23:55] how it's affect the the markets um and [23:58] when we talked about the the war in Iran [24:01] we also have to to talk about Israel and [24:04] I will be [24:06] look very very much forward to to hear [24:08] fun state of union [24:11] two weeks from now. [24:12] >> Yes. [24:13] >> And I think we should listen very [24:14] careful to carefully to what she said is [24:17] going to say about um about that war and [24:19] also about the cooperation with Israel. [24:22] Um she she she always mentions what's [24:26] what's going on there. So I I I I'm sure [24:28] that she will do that again this year [24:30] and it because I think it will what she [24:34] will say in this speech is going to to [24:36] make the what path and what kind of [24:39] discuss the discussions we're going to [24:42] have during the this season as you [24:44] called it. Um but [24:48] what we have seen for the last year and [24:51] a half that uh a lot of people here in [24:53] the parliament mostly the left wing has [24:55] is talking about putting more and more [24:57] pressure on Israel wants to make it more [25:00] difficult for for Israelian farmers and [25:03] companies to to sell their their stuff [25:05] in to Europe. I hope we can go away from [25:08] that. I'm very [25:10] I'm not optimistic but let's see because [25:12] I think maybe there will be some changes [25:13] as Thomas also talked about because we [25:15] will have some elections for the next 12 [25:17] months that I believe will go uh very [25:20] well uh at least if you look at the [25:22] polls it's it's right now looks um looks [25:26] quite good um we have to talk about [25:28] anti-mitism I think we will do that we [25:31] have done that a lot we we will have [25:33] focus on that uh again this this autumn [25:36] we need to to continue all the time to [25:39] to talk about it because when [25:42] sometimes at least in Denmark people [25:44] forget they have to forget about how [25:46] much anti-semitism we actually have here [25:48] in Europe and and me and my office we we [25:51] we [25:52] do a lot of uh work to to make people [25:56] remember what's happening in Europe [25:59] >> especially Denmark history [26:01] exactly saving the Jewish community and [26:04] right now we can see that the [26:05] Islamization in Europe that more and [26:08] more Jews in Europe is afraid to live [26:10] here and who can do something uh for for [26:13] them. It's us. It's us here in this [26:15] parliament in the national parliament. [26:16] So that will be a huge focus for me and [26:20] my office and I hope it's something that [26:22] will be a topic that we will use a lot [26:25] of time on here in power. [26:27] >> Thank you Thomas Sundel. Quickly I would [26:29] like to end this program on a very [26:32] practical note. How can those who are [26:35] watching this program uh but are not [26:38] elected members of the European [26:39] Parliament [26:41] or accredited lobbyists like yourself, [26:44] how can they be supportive of Israel? [26:47] >> I give you a very short answer. Um share [26:50] this program with your friends uh but [26:53] also on social media. I know it's many [26:56] people are very reluctant to show their [26:59] support for Israel, the Jewish people, [27:01] even on social media. Uh because they [27:03] say it comes with the cost. People may [27:06] befriend them this and that. Listen, [27:08] it's a very low cost in the times that [27:12] we are living in compared to people who [27:15] are suffering for for uh you know [27:18] anti-semitism for the faith or whatever [27:20] around the world. So be more courageous [27:23] and be more practical and if the only [27:26] thing you can do is to share this [27:27] program, please do it. [27:30] >> That was all for the edition of the [27:32] European Report. Thank you MEP Storm and [27:35] Thomas Sandell for this very interesting [27:38] discussion on issues that are affecting [27:41] AUI Israel relations. to our viewers. As [27:44] always, as Thomas Sandel said, if you [27:47] like our program, feel please feel free [27:50] to share the YouTube link with your [27:52] friends and colleagues. My name is Yos [27:55] Lamovich and this has been the European [27:57] Report. See you again next month. [28:07] [music]
