Transcript [00:00] What happened to the love affair between [00:02] Jews and the Democratic Party? The [00:05] Democrats turn against Israel has been [00:08] obvious by their embrace of anti-Semitic [00:10] and anti-Israel candidates like Michigan [00:12] senatorial nominee Dr. Abdul Elsad and [00:15] New York City Mayor Zoran Mandani and [00:18] their opposition to President Donald [00:20] Trump's efforts to reign in [00:22] anti-semitism on college campuses. But [00:25] are Jews taking the hint and changing [00:26] parties? The answer from Jewish [00:29] Democratic office holders and apparently [00:31] most of their voters is an emphatic no. [00:34] But one of the most prominent Jewish [00:36] liberals of the post-war generation has [00:38] drawn a different conclusion. This week [00:41] on Think Twice, we speak with fame legal [00:43] analyst and author Alan Dersowitz about [00:45] his new book, Why I Quit the Dems and So [00:49] Should You: The Confessions of a [00:51] Reluctant Republican. [01:13] Hello and welcome to Think Twice. to [01:16] listen to leading Democrats like Senate [01:18] Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and [01:20] Michigan Attorney General Dana Nestle. [01:22] The prime obligation of American Jews is [01:24] to support the Democratic Party no [01:26] matter where it stands go on Israel and [01:29] even when it nominates anti-Semitic [01:31] candidates. Given the historic loyalty [01:34] of the majority of Jews to the party and [01:36] their political liberalism, many Jews [01:39] still agree with them about that. But [01:41] even those who have gotten over their [01:43] shock over the Democrats hostility to [01:45] Israel and Zionism now are considering [01:48] how the elevation of the likes of [01:50] Elsaiad and Mandani and the way the [01:52] left's toxic ideas about diversity, [01:55] equity, and inclusion, the woke [01:56] catechism of DEI has endangered their [01:59] own safety in their synagogues and on [02:02] the streets. Not to mention the plight [02:04] of Jewish college students having to [02:05] face down pro Hamas mobs that are either [02:08] tolerated or supported by the liberal [02:10] establishment and the Democrats. One [02:13] person who has thought a great deal [02:15] about this is Alan Derswitz and we're [02:17] very pleased to have him back on the [02:19] program with us today. Alan Dersowitz is [02:22] one of the most prominent legal minds of [02:24] his generation. He was the youngest full [02:26] professor in the history of Harvard Law [02:28] School where he still serves as the [02:30] Felix Frankfurt or professor of law [02:32] emmeritus and has been a central figure [02:35] in many of the nation's most pro [02:37] high-profile law cases including the [02:39] impeachments of presidents Bill Clinton [02:41] and Donald Trump and he's authored over [02:44] 60 books including his latest why I quit [02:47] the dems and so Should you the [02:49] confessions of a reluctant Republican [02:52] Ellen Dersowitz welcome back to think [02:54] twice. [02:55] >> Hey, it's always a pleasure to be on [02:56] with you. I'm a big fan of your writing [02:58] and big fan of everything you do. So, [03:00] it's my honor and pleasure uh to be [03:03] questioned by you. [03:04] >> Well, thanks so much. I really [03:05] appreciate it. There's a lot I want to [03:08] get into with your new book, but I want [03:10] to start with um shall we say the issue [03:13] of the moment. uh is the Democratic [03:16] Party's turn against Israel just about [03:19] Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu as some [03:21] of its leading Jewish office holders [03:24] insist and will therefore cease to be an [03:26] issue if he loses his bid for [03:28] re-election on October 27th of this [03:30] year? Or is this a systemic problem that [03:33] goes far deeper than the antagonism for [03:35] Israel's current government or even [03:37] criticisms of the post October 7th war [03:40] against Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran? [03:43] There's a little of both. I think that [03:44] the war against Hamas and the many many [03:48] year tenure of controversial Prime [03:51] Minister Netanyahu has certainly created [03:55] an impetus for some of this and has [03:57] given an excuse and justification for [03:59] it. But I think the hatred of of Israel, [04:03] the hatred of the nation, state of the [04:04] Jewish people is much more systemic and [04:08] it's part of a worldwide problem. Um, [04:10] we're seeing extremism from both sides, [04:13] the right and the left growing all over [04:15] the world. Uh, certainly in France and [04:17] in England and in Spain and um, it's [04:20] interesting. I was recently in Italy. I [04:22] didn't see it as much in Italy as I saw [04:24] it in other European countries, but [04:26] surely in America um, centism is under [04:30] attack. And whenever the right and the [04:33] left assume power, it's bad for the Jews [04:35] and it's bad for Israel. So whatever the [04:38] cause of this may be or the [04:39] precipitating factors may be, we have to [04:42] look at this as a systemic problem [04:44] that's going to continue during my [04:46] lifetime. I'm 88 years old. Hopefully [04:48] not during your lifetime, but my [04:50] suspicion is that it will continue uh [04:52] for quite a long period of time. Thanks [04:54] for tuning in to Think Twice. Whether [04:57] you're listening to us on any of the [04:59] podcast platforms or watching us live on [05:01] Facebook or X or on the JNS YouTube [05:04] channel, please like and or subscribe to [05:07] JNS. Click on the bell for notifications [05:09] and give us good reviews. Also, in [05:12] addition to think twice, there is a [05:13] Jonathan Tobin Daily podcast where I [05:15] share more news and analysis with you [05:17] about the most significant issues we're [05:19] facing today. You can find the Daily [05:22] Show under Jonathan Tobin Daily on the [05:25] JNS channel wherever you get your [05:27] podcasts. And now back to today's [05:30] program. Yeah. Now before we discuss the [05:33] possibility of a political shift among [05:36] Jews as your book suggests, I think we [05:39] need to understand at least briefly why [05:41] they were Democrats in the first place. [05:43] Why were Jews Democrats and why, in your [05:46] opinion, did it make sense for them [05:47] throughout the 20th century, which is [05:49] where you start the book talking about [05:51] your own, you know, uh, youth? [05:53] >> Well, they were Democrats cuz they [05:54] weren't Republicans. Um, and, um, the [05:57] Republican party in my family, in my [06:00] neighborhood, stood for, you know, [06:03] waspy, polite anti-semites who didn't [06:05] allow us into universities and our [06:08] parents to work at banks. and uh they're [06:11] the ones who had the homes uh on Park [06:14] Avenue that were restricted. Um and uh [06:17] the Democrats were the party of [06:18] immigrants and you know we got along [06:20] very well with Italian-Americans [06:22] um not often as well with Irish [06:24] Americans but u you know we were the [06:27] party of uh of uh of immigrants, the [06:30] Democrats and so I never thought about [06:33] whether I should be a Republican or a [06:35] Democrat. It just it came naturally to [06:37] me. Um, it was also the party that was [06:40] against McCarthyism. Um, it was the [06:43] party that was against, you know, Roy [06:45] Con, even though he was Jewish. Uh, and [06:48] it it was [06:49] >> racial. Yeah. Right. Sure. [06:51] >> It was a comfortable fit. Um, I I I [06:54] didn't one day sit down when I was 15 [06:56] and say, should I be a Democrat or [06:58] Republican? In my neighborhood of [07:00] Burough Park in Brooklyn, there were no [07:01] Republicans. There were Democrats. There [07:03] were some liberals. There were some [07:06] socialists. There were handful of [07:08] communists. There was a little communist [07:09] bookstore on 13th Avenue, but there were [07:12] no Republicans. Um, I knew somebody uh, [07:16] a friend of mine's father was a [07:17] Republican, and he admitted he was a [07:19] Republican only because it would give [07:21] him a better chance to become a judge. [07:23] Um, but, um, I didn't know any real [07:27] ideological Republicans. Of course, when [07:29] Eisenhower got in, there were Jews who [07:32] supported him. Eisenhower was such a [07:33] decent man um and such a hero of the [07:37] Second World War that there was some [07:39] support and then there was some support [07:41] for Nixon too. There was some [07:43] anti-atholic feeling uh among some Jews [07:47] uh when John Kennedy ran. But I think [07:50] it's fair to say that until the turn of [07:52] this century uh it was pretty automatic [07:55] for Jews of my background, your [07:57] background to identify with the [08:00] Democratic party. Look, I debated Norman [08:02] Purdz on this I don't know 25 30 years [08:05] ago uh and debated some other people on [08:08] this subject and I was always taking the [08:10] position of course of course we should [08:12] be democrats and liberals and was saying [08:15] no you know even liberalism is not [08:18] particularly great for the Jews of [08:19] course depends how you define liberalism [08:21] I haven't shifted my identity as a [08:24] liberal I am a liberal but I'm no longer [08:26] a liberal democrat because I think [08:28] that's an oxymoron I don't think [08:30] democrats a liberals. [08:32] >> The reason I basically made the switch [08:34] was not because Mamani got elected or [08:37] because El say was nominated. It's [08:40] because Chuck Schumer supported them. [08:42] It's because the mainstream of the [08:44] Democratic Party, which is testicularly [08:47] challenged, um wouldn't stand up against [08:51] the anti-semmites in the Democratic [08:52] party. whereas President Trump did stand [08:55] up against um uh some of the extremists [08:59] in the Republican party. So for me uh [09:02] the issue is not the extremes, it's how [09:04] the center deals with the extremes. [09:06] Yeah. Now, some on the left within the [09:09] Democrats um spin this as something that [09:14] it's wrong for Jews to be to prioritize [09:16] Israel or to be single issue voters, [09:19] which is something that most Jewish [09:21] Democrats have really never been. Um [09:24] that's become a talking point for those [09:26] trying to defend anti-Israel and I would [09:28] argue anti-Semitic Democrats like Mdani [09:31] and El Say why are they wrong? Well, [09:34] first of all, we should become more [09:35] single issue voters. If I were living in [09:38] Germany in 1932 and I were an [09:39] environmentalist or a vegetarian or [09:42] somebody who wanted full employment for [09:43] Germany, I wouldn't care about those [09:44] issues. I'd care about Adolf Hitler. [09:47] 7,000 German Jews voted for Adolf [09:49] Hitler. Um, I think the time has come [09:52] for single issue voting. Uh, [09:54] anti-semitism is the most serious danger [09:57] in the world today of bigotry. much much [09:59] more serious than uh racism, anti-black [10:02] attitudes, anti-women's attitude, [10:04] anti-gay attitude, anti-Muslim [10:06] attitudes, much worse. Why? Because in [10:08] the other areas, the trajectory is all [10:10] in the right direction. Uh whereas the [10:12] trajectory on anti-semitism is in the [10:14] wrong direction. So, as a civil [10:16] libertarian, as a human rights activist, [10:18] as a civil rights person, I am becoming [10:21] more and more of a single issue voter, [10:23] as should others non-Jews as well. Uh I [10:26] have friends who are not Jewish who have [10:28] become singleissue voters uh because [10:30] they think anti-semitism and [10:32] anti-sionism is such a great danger to [10:35] America. Look, I still support a woman's [10:38] right to choose abortion. I support gay [10:40] rights, by the way. I do not support gay [10:42] rights organizations. Um I don't support [10:45] any organizations, I don't care what [10:46] their policies are, who are strongly [10:48] opposed to Israel. So no, Black Lives [10:50] Matter, yes, Black Lives Matter, but [10:53] Black Lives Matter organization is [10:55] despicable and I I will do everything in [10:57] my power to destroy it and defeat it. [10:59] The same thing is true of gay [11:01] organizations that support Hamas. So u [11:04] single issue, you know, it it used to be [11:06] an insult. I don't take it as an out. [11:09] This is now my grandmother uh telling me [11:11] when I come home from a Brooklyn Dodger [11:12] game and say, "The Brooklyn Dodgers [11:14] won." And she would say in her thick [11:15] Polish accent, "Yeah, but was that good [11:17] or bad for the Jews?" uh you know that's [11:20] very different. I don't think of it that [11:22] way but I do think of every issue today [11:25] one of the questions I pose is it good [11:28] or bad for the Jews? And the answer [11:29] tragically is almost always it's bad for [11:31] the Jews. [11:32] >> Right. I think it's worth drilling down [11:34] for a moment on the Michigan Senate race [11:36] because their Jews really are faced with [11:39] a stark choice and a test. Virtually [11:42] every leading Democrat, you've already [11:44] alluded to it, has rallied around Elsa, [11:47] including Senate Minority Leader Chuck [11:49] Schumer, Senator Lisa Slotkin, who's [11:52] also Jewish, and the Attorney General of [11:55] Michigan, uh, Dana Nestle, also Jewish, [11:59] who has argued that giving the Democrats [12:01] the majority in the Senate is more [12:03] important than Israel's survival or even [12:05] that of the Jewish people. Now, have [12:07] they just betrayed everything for [12:09] partisanship, or is there any kind of [12:11] justification for such a position? And [12:14] why hasn't she come under more general [12:16] condemnation other than perhaps from [12:18] people like you and me? Well, she should [12:20] come under more general condemnation. [12:22] And uh the idea of putting party before [12:25] your own people is is absurd. Uh and uh [12:29] you know, Jews voted for Mussolini, too. [12:32] uh and and um uh if Jews lived in China, [12:36] they would have, you know, voted for uh [12:39] the Communist Party there too, as they [12:42] supported Stalin. Many many did uh [12:45] during the 1920s and 30s and 40s even [12:48] >> before being oppressed and you know [12:50] thrown into the goolog or killed. Yeah. [12:52] >> Um and and you know what what I knew a [12:55] lot of Russian Jews because I [12:56] represented them and I'd meet sometimes [12:58] and and they would say, "Oh, we're not [13:00] in danger. it's only those Jews that are [13:02] in danger like Sharansky and and you [13:04] know the answer is always first they [13:06] come for the Sheranskys um then they [13:09] come for the ordinary Jews and then they [13:11] come for the Catholics and the [13:12] Protestants and everybody else. So uh I [13:16] you don't have to be a single issue [13:18] person to be concerned about what's [13:21] happened with the Democratic party [13:22] today. I would like to see the [13:24] Democratic Party defeated uh in every [13:26] single election. Look, there's a woman [13:28] running for mayor of Boulder, Colorado. [13:30] Uh, a black woman who uh won't say she [13:34] believes in Israel's right to exist. I [13:37] mean, if you believe in New Zealand's [13:38] right to exist, it's our foriari. You [13:41] have to believe in Israel's right. New [13:42] Zealand is the paradigm of a colonial [13:45] settler state. Uh, uh, white Christians [13:48] from England who had never set foot in [13:50] an island in the Pacific, colonized the [13:53] island, murdered many of the Malorie. um [13:57] exiled others of them, created a fake [14:00] treaty, and then set up a country. Um [14:03] New Zealand, does it have the right to [14:04] exist? That's an interesting question. [14:07] Um Israel, of course, has been a Jewish [14:09] state for 4,000 years or 3,500 years. Uh [14:14] there's never been a moment in history [14:17] when there haven't been some Jews living [14:19] in what is now Israel, the land of of [14:22] Israel. Um the um Palestinians could [14:25] have had a state 1937 [14:28] 38 47 48 67 [14:32] 95 20201 [14:35] 2007 probably could still have one even [14:38] though Bill Clinton is right. When you [14:40] turn down the kind of offer that they [14:41] got in 20201 don't expect the same offer [14:45] to be made again. But you know the [14:47] Palestinian claim of Nagba is the [14:49] phoniest claim ever. I mean, if there is [14:52] a Nagba, it was a self-inflicted wound [14:55] by Palestinian leadership. Bengurian [14:57] said no Palestinian should have to [14:59] leave. Every Palestinian should stay and [15:02] um they would have been welcomed um and [15:04] they would have been strong and powerful [15:07] um in Israel. But uh the leaders decided [15:10] that they should leave and that's now [15:12] called the Mach the Nakba. the the [15:15] Palestinian issue was the worst human [15:16] rights issue I've ever seen in my 70 [15:20] years of concern for human rights. I've [15:22] never seen a weaker case. The Kurds have [15:24] a strong case. The Ugers have a strong [15:26] case. The Palestinian leaders have no [15:29] case. Uh and yet they are the most [15:31] popular cause in in in the world today. [15:34] You know, Larry David wrote a piece [15:36] yesterday in the newspapers in which he [15:38] said, "Well, we should stop calling the [15:40] Jews the chosen people. call them the [15:41] bagel people and send them to uh Piccar [15:45] island. And I wrote back to Larry and [15:46] said, "Yeah, but if you did that, [15:49] Piccarnianism would become the most [15:51] important civil rights issue of the age. [15:53] Every left-winger would be marching for [15:55] Pitcon even though they didn't even know [15:57] where it was. Nobody gives a damn about [16:00] the Palestinian people except Israelis [16:02] and Palestinians. these marchers, these [16:05] people, these Episcopalians, these [16:07] Protestants, uh, who march for [16:10] Palestinianism couldn't care less about [16:12] the Palestinian people. It's only that [16:14] they're alleged oppressor is Jewish. If [16:16] their alleged oppression with Turkish, [16:18] as the Kurd oppressor is, or um, [16:21] Chinese, as the Uggers, nobody would [16:24] care about them. This is not a human [16:26] rights issue. This is an issue of [16:29] anti-Jewish, [16:30] deep, deep-seated hatred. [16:34] It's interesting you referenced Larry [16:36] David. Um, he was someone who broke with [16:39] you over your defense of Donald Trump. [16:42] You're you're actually just being a [16:44] lawyer for Donald Trump. Um, and you [16:47] know that turned into a whole kurfuffle. [16:50] Um, but it's relevant to my next [16:52] question because for most Jews, um, [16:57] Trump is, you know, a line that they [16:59] cannot cross. And the question is, is [17:02] hatred of Donald Trump, who I might add, [17:05] gave a wholesome endorsement of your new [17:07] book. It's on the back of it. It's on [17:09] its back. Um, it it's quite a blurb. [17:13] Yeah, I was going to hold it up myself, [17:15] but you beat me to it. Um, but it's fair [17:18] to ask, is his presence in the White [17:21] House, um, you know, we could debate, [17:25] you know, Donald Trump, you know, till [17:27] till the cows come home, but is that [17:29] enough of an argument to keep most Jews [17:31] in the Democratic tent? For a lot of [17:33] people, it is. Uh, from my wife, it is. [17:36] Um, she, uh, left the Democratic party, [17:39] but became an independent. Uh, she [17:41] couldn't sign on to the current [17:43] Republican party. For a lot of Jews, by [17:45] the way, the issue is not any longer [17:47] Donald Trump. It's um it's Vance. Um I [17:52] think a lot of Jews are very very [17:54] concerned about Vance. Vance, by the [17:56] way, refused to endorse not Yahoo. Uh [17:59] having previously endorsed Polish uh [18:02] candidates for prime minister, saying he [18:04] doesn't get involved in foreign [18:05] elections. Of course he does. He went to [18:07] Poland and campaigned for the right-wing [18:12] Polish leader. Um, Vance is is not [18:15] pro-Israel. I don't think Vance is an [18:17] anti-semite, but I am very concerned [18:19] about Vance and Vance, [18:21] >> he could drive me back to the Democratic [18:23] party. I can imagine, you know, two and [18:25] a half years from now, um, my dream [18:28] would be the Democrats start nominating, [18:31] you know, decent people, maybe even have [18:33] attempt big enough to embrace John [18:36] Federman and Josh Gutheimr. Uh, right. [18:40] We we'll get to that. I want to I do [18:42] want to get to that. But for the moment, [18:45] you know, isn't I think what's driving [18:47] people like Dana Nestle this idea that [18:52] Trump is the ultimate evil? You know, he [18:54] has become it's it's not even about the [18:56] issues so much as it's just become him. [18:59] >> Oh, of course. And you know, for Larry [19:01] David, Trump is Hitler. He actually [19:03] wrote a piece about, you know, having [19:05] dinner with Hitler. [19:06] >> Yeah. criticizing Bill Mayer for the, [19:08] you know, for the offense of just [19:10] meeting with Trump. [19:11] >> For your gossip hungry folks, uh Larry [19:14] and I have made up. Um he uh wrote to me [19:18] and called me and uh we actually had an [19:20] exchange yesterday uh after his article [19:23] came out. Um so, you know, will he be my [19:27] friend again? I don't know. I mean, we [19:29] were very close friends. Um, but he [19:31] thought that not only was he upset with [19:34] me about my support uh, my political uh, [19:37] support for some Republicans and my [19:39] legal uh, defense of of Trump, but he [19:42] was furious at me for having embraced [19:45] um, Mike Pompeo. Um, he saw a [19:48] photograph, a picture of me at the White [19:50] House during one of the Israeli peace [19:52] signing events and I put my hand on [19:55] Mike's back and and patted him. He was [19:57] my former student and you know, I like [19:59] him. I I like him very much and I'm very [20:02] proud of my support for Mike Pompeo, but [20:04] for Larry David that was too much. So, [20:06] uh, it started with Pompeo then moved to [20:08] Trump. We'll never reconcile over those [20:11] issues. But I think Larry and I both [20:14] realize that our our friendship was too [20:15] old and it went too deep to be to be [20:18] turned into envity. So, I would say now [20:21] we're not enemies. We are soft friends. [20:25] Okay. Well, that's nice to hear. It's [20:26] nice to hear people behaving nicely. Um, [20:29] but that's not how but that's not really [20:32] the tenor of American politics or really [20:34] politics anywhere that I know of right [20:37] now. It is, you know, we are a [20:39] bifurcated country [20:41] >> world bifurcated world. [20:43] >> Yeah. [20:44] >> I think it's important to drill down on [20:46] the question of how this transformation [20:49] of the Democratic Party happened. Um, do [20:52] you think there's any argument in favor [20:54] of what I like to call the woke [20:55] catechism of DEI, diversity, equity, and [20:58] uh, inclusion, which I would argue has [21:01] become the engine of anti-semitism on [21:04] the left, especially in education. Some [21:07] Jews react to it by saying that they [21:10] just need to be included in the list of [21:12] those who are protected minorities under [21:14] DEI. Do you think that's a mistake? [21:16] >> That's a mistake. Look, if you had to [21:19] name one villain in what's going on in [21:21] the world today, I would point the [21:23] finger at Harvard University. Um, [21:25] Harvard University, which is the [21:27] epitome, the paradigm for American [21:30] universities, has become a place of [21:32] utter mediocrity. Um, I taught there for [21:35] 50 years. Um, I didn't think it was a [21:38] great university when I was teaching [21:39] there. I saw lots and lots of mediocre [21:42] professors who were promoted because [21:44] they knew the right people, said the [21:46] right things, had the right contacts. Uh [21:48] Harvard had a horrible history of [21:51] turning down some of the most eminent [21:53] people in the world because they didn't [21:56] kind of fit. In fact, people were [21:57] surprised when Harvard hired me because [21:59] I certainly didn't fit the image of of a [22:02] Harvard professor, but I was actually [22:03] the uh the youngest Harvard professor [22:06] ever at the law school. and I was its [22:08] first Jewish Jew. Um I was the first [22:11] Harvard professor ever to really be [22:15] proud and display my Judaism at at [22:18] Harvard and it got a little quite a bit [22:20] of push back. I opposed DEI before DEI [22:23] even had a name. I was one of the first [22:25] people to oppose racial quotas. I wrote [22:28] a piece in 1970 [22:30] against um racial quotas and that put me [22:33] in in the minority. Um and and Harvard [22:36] has turned into a place of utter [22:38] mediocrity. There are, you know, a few [22:40] handfuls of great professors, but there [22:43] are so many mediocre professors at [22:46] Harvard. Uh the students are rate um but [22:49] they're too influenced uh by the [22:51] professors. And too many professors use [22:54] the lect turn as a way of propagandizing [22:56] students. They're not teaching students [22:58] how to think. They're telling them what [23:00] to think. And if Harvard can do it, then [23:02] every school can do it. So, if you ask [23:04] me to p point my finger for this change [23:07] at one institution, I would say it's [23:10] Harvard. And uh you know, it had a great [23:12] a great uh uh president and Larry [23:15] Summers. Of course, they fired him. Um [23:18] and um they uh instead got what? Claudia [23:22] Gay. Um, I mean that was the perfect [23:24] example of uh switching from a Nobel [23:28] quality economist, brilliant, to a [23:32] mediocre [23:33] third rate uh person who shouldn't have [23:36] ever been an assistant professor at [23:38] Harvard and making her making her the [23:40] president. And Harvard has a great [23:42] president now, but he's saticularly [23:44] challenged. He uh and and by the way, [23:47] almost all college presidents and [23:49] university deans are testicularly [23:51] challenged. If you grow a pair, you're [23:53] going to get fired. Uh you got to just [23:56] sit back and and accept what's going on [23:59] and maybe try to ameliorate it a bit. [24:01] But uh if you ask me to name one [24:04] institution, I would say it's Harvard. [24:08] Well, well, let's drill down on that [24:09] point for a moment. Uh President Trump [24:12] was roundly criticized by most Democrats [24:15] for his efforts to reign in [24:17] anti-semitism on college campuses. Um, [24:20] and even some who were willing to [24:22] challenge what was going on, the [24:24] anti-semitic pro Hamas mobs, uh, they [24:26] said he was politicizing the problem and [24:28] making it a partisan issue. But my [24:30] question for you is, why didn't [24:33] Democrats not only failed to make common [24:35] cause with him about this, but instead [24:38] rallied around Harvard, Colombia, and [24:40] other institutions that had tolerated [24:43] and even encouraged Jew hatred on [24:45] campus. I mean, I'll just, you know, [24:46] note, you know, Schumer, the the [24:49] so-called share, although, you know, [24:51] anybody who'd ever covered him or, you [24:53] know, you know, heard that speech a [24:54] hundred times about how he was the shmer [24:56] of the Jews in Israel, that went down [24:58] the line. But he was advising, as we [25:00] subsequently learned uh the board of [25:03] Colombia not not to react and not to [25:07] worry about the um effort to push back [25:10] against anti-semitism there by saying [25:13] that only Republicans cared about it. [25:15] Yeah. [25:15] >> Um, [25:16] >> why did this why did this become a [25:18] partisan issue? [25:19] >> I think because the administration made [25:22] a serious mistake and the serious [25:24] mistake was failing to distinguish [25:26] between pure scientific research, cures [25:29] of cancer, helping children on the one [25:32] hand and the uh department of theology, [25:36] the theology school at Harvard, which is [25:38] a sewer. The theology school at Harvard [25:40] is an absolute sewer. And I think that [25:43] insults sewers by calling it that. It's [25:45] a horrible horrible anti-semitic place. [25:48] It could have been very comfortable [25:50] during the Inquisition. Um and and [25:53] failing to distinguish between the [25:55] Divinity School on the one hand and um [25:58] people who are curing cancer on the [25:59] other and holding back research funds [26:01] from from the you remember the the the [26:05] Divinity School doesn't get research [26:07] funds. So they couldn't do much against [26:09] the Divinity School. The Divinity School [26:11] should be abolished. The Harvard School [26:13] of Public Health should be abolished. [26:15] >> Although the Divinity School is why [26:16] Harvard actually was created, you know, [26:18] a few hundred years ago. [26:20] >> There's no question. There was some [26:21] great, you know, Harvey Cox, there was [26:24] some great professors at the Divinity [26:26] School over the years, but no longer. [26:28] It's today just a place that Joseph [26:30] Gerbles would feel very comfortable uh [26:33] attending. And so um and by the way I [26:37] don't think universities should have [26:39] divinity schools. Uh you know that they [26:41] don't have astrology schools. So I don't [26:43] see why they have divinity schools. Um [26:46] you can study religion but you can do [26:48] that through departments. Which gets me [26:50] to my other big complaint which I've [26:52] been complaining about for 50 years at [26:53] Harvard. Harvard should have no no [26:57] regional ethnic departments. There [26:59] shouldn't be a Middle East studies [27:00] department. There shouldn't be a [27:02] feminist. There shouldn't be a gay [27:03] studies department. And here you're [27:04] going to be shocked. There should not be [27:06] a Jewish studies department. Jewish [27:09] studies departments have become the [27:11] worst among the most anti-Semitic, [27:13] anti-Israel, anti-sionist. Because if [27:16] you want to prove you're really really a [27:18] member of the Harvard community, you're [27:20] not stuck in a ghetto of a Jewish [27:23] department. You're going to be an [27:24] anti-Israel [27:25] member of that department. So, I would [27:27] abolish all of those departments [27:29] immediately. Now you can have courses [27:31] obviously in Middle East studies but [27:33] when you have a department it becomes an [27:35] advocacy center and um every advocacy [27:39] center except Jewish ones are anti are [27:42] or no uh support their views. Every [27:46] advocacy center, including Jewish ones, [27:48] are anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, [27:50] anti-Zionist, and and must be abolished. [27:53] If you want to get universities back to, [27:56] you know, teaching science and teaching [27:58] math and teaching history objectively, [28:00] you can't have these special departments [28:03] which destroy universities. Well, I I [28:07] have to respond to that by by asking you [28:09] what I ask so many people when we [28:11] discuss this issue is if the entire [28:14] American education system uh you know [28:16] everybody who gets a job at a university [28:19] uh anywhere not just Harvard or Colombia [28:21] but you know the the other ones and even [28:24] in K to2 schools if if this is so [28:29] endemic in our higher education [28:32] you know how do we do it? I mean what [28:34] you know do we blow them all up and just [28:36] try to recreate new institutions like [28:39] some people are doing with the the [28:41] project in Austin or in you know new [28:43] college or the Hamilton College in [28:44] Florida. Um but you know not everybody [28:47] can go to those you know especially the [28:49] Jewish parents want to send their kids [28:51] to the still want to send them to what [28:52] they think are elite schools. How do we [28:55] how do we solve that problem? [28:56] >> It's very difficult because they are [28:58] elite schools. So getting into Harvard [29:00] maximizes your chances of getting a good [29:03] job. Not for the three years you're here [29:04] at the law school or the four years [29:06] you're at the college, but the most [29:08] important day is the day you get your [29:09] admission letter. Um not the day you get [29:11] your graduation letter because everybody [29:13] graduates. Uh but admission the only [29:16] important really important office at [29:18] Harvard is the admissions office and uh [29:22] once you get into Harvard um things [29:24] change um for you uh and you're on a [29:28] projected path to economic and other [29:31] kinds of success. So it's very hard to [29:34] break that. Um I spoke recently at one [29:36] of those schools you mentioned at uh the [29:38] new college in Florida. It was terrific. [29:40] the students were sitting at the edge of [29:42] their chairs uh wanting to learn uh [29:45] unlike Harvard where they sit back in [29:47] their chair and they say all right teach [29:49] me teach me I'm not really listening um [29:52] so uh it's a very big project and it [29:56] will not be accomplished in either of [29:58] our lifetimes but um if if I could start [30:03] all over again um with colleges and [30:05] universities I would do it but that's [30:08] not going to be that's not going to be [30:10] possible So I think [30:11] >> changes have to be incremental. Um uh [30:14] but they have to also I'll tell you an [30:16] interesting story. You might find this [30:18] just an interesting anecdote. So there [30:20] were group group of people that wanted [30:21] to name a professorship after me at [30:23] Harvard the Dersuitous Professorship of [30:25] Tikun Lam of Human Rights etc. And so [30:30] somebody called Sheldon add and asked [30:32] him would you contribute and Sheldon [30:34] said I love Alan Dersu. I'll do anything [30:36] for him. I'll contribute anything to [30:37] him, but I will never give a penny for a [30:40] chair in Tikunolam because what will [30:42] happen is until as long as Allan and I [30:45] are alive, he said it would be filled [30:47] by, you know, a tikunam person, somebody [30:50] who really cares about human rights, but [30:52] as soon as we die, it will go to an [30:54] anti-Israel uh pro Hamas person. I'm not [30:57] going to have my money go for that. And [30:58] he he wouldn't give any money. And I [31:00] would think that uh many many donors [31:02] should stop giving money to universities [31:05] um and and should uh start allocating [31:08] their resources in in different [31:10] directions. Um universities for today [31:13] for the most part don't deserve the [31:16] support of of Jewish donors although [31:18] Jewish donors are absolutely essential [31:20] to many many uh universities. [31:24] Is this, as many Jewish Democrats still [31:27] claim, a free speech issue? Um, and how [31:30] can we, as as you asked in one of your [31:32] essays in in your new book, save [31:34] American education from woke Stalinism [31:37] that is driving anti-semitism? Of [31:39] course, it's a free speech issue, but [31:41] free speech is goes beyond the [31:42] government. Give me an example. So, this [31:45] is my 64th book. Um, my 30th book, [31:50] whatever it was, was Klitsbah, was [31:52] number one New York Times bestseller. [31:54] I've had six or seven uh bestsellers. [31:59] You cannot buy this book today in an [32:01] independent bookstore. Independent [32:03] bookstores today are the worst. They [32:06] claim to be the heart and soul of the [32:08] First Amendment. They sell books, you [32:10] know, they they advertise books. They [32:12] promote books. You cannot get this book [32:14] in an independent bookstore. Go go go go [32:16] go to your local bookstore, go to [32:18] Shakespearean Company, go to any of [32:19] these places. They won't sell a book [32:22] about why the Jesuits left the the [32:25] Democratic party. No, you want this [32:27] book, you got to go on Amazon and get it [32:29] uh uh on the internet. Uh so bookstores [32:33] are killing the first amendment. They [32:35] are not the paragonss of the first [32:37] amendment. They are the enemies of the [32:39] first amendment. It's free speech for [32:41] me, but not for thee. So, don't go to [32:44] your local bookstore. Go to go to online [32:48] that sell everything and to everybody [32:50] and and and and buy books you're [32:52] interested, not books that the local [32:54] bookstore is interested in selling you. [32:56] I grew up in Burough Park on 13th Avenue [32:58] between 51st and 52nd. There was a [33:01] little Troskyike bookstore. Guy looked [33:03] like Trosky. Had a little beard and you [33:06] know he sold only communist books and he [33:10] he he was at least honest about it. He [33:12] wouldn't sell a book via a Republican. [33:14] He was a communist book seller. And [33:16] that's what I think many independent [33:18] book sellers are becoming. So, uh, rail [33:22] against the bookstores. By the way, [33:23] that's not only true of bookstores. [33:24] That's true of book fairs and book [33:26] clubs. For example, the book fair of [33:28] Martha's Vineyard never has a pro-Israel [33:31] speaker or a pro-Israel person who's [33:33] writing a book. The Boston book fair [33:36] never has pro-Israel uh speakers. they [33:39] all move to the left and they sell books [33:42] that they think you should be reading, [33:44] not books that you want to read. Um, I [33:47] think that's undoubtedly true. And what [33:50] I've heard um in in our reporting at JNS [33:54] and and elsewhere is that you know you [33:56] you you know you rightly complain that [33:59] independent book sellers won't sell your [34:00] book. But for people who are not Alan [34:03] Dersowitz and who can get you know 64 [34:06] book get their 64th book published even [34:08] if independent book sellers won't sell [34:10] it. um that publishing houses are [34:13] erasing Jews, not choosing to publish [34:16] increasingly not choosing to publish [34:18] Jewish authors even in fiction um unless [34:22] they are you know sort of the Jew the [34:24] Jews who are willing to stand with the [34:26] enemies of the Jews, right? And it's [34:28] also being done by Jewish book [34:30] publishers um who are themselves are are [34:33] are Jewish. Let me tell you what's going [34:35] to happen to Jews in the future. This is [34:36] a big prediction. Jews in the future are [34:39] going to be like Jews under the Zar. [34:42] What happened during the Zarist period? [34:44] Jews never got appointed to anything. [34:46] They didn't win any prizes. They didn't [34:48] get admitted to universities. But they [34:50] became the best violinists in the world. [34:52] They became the best chess players in [34:54] the world. They invented things. They [34:58] because to the extent you could have a [35:00] little free market corner of a Zarist [35:04] regime, they were able to thrive. That's [35:06] what's happening to Jews now. Jews are [35:08] not being admitted to Harvard. When I [35:10] was there, it was 22 23%. Now it's below [35:14] what it was under the quotas. It's [35:16] around 8% 8 or 9%. Maybe it's even lower [35:18] than that. We're not sure. Jews are not [35:21] going to be picked for Nobel prizes [35:22] anymore. There was one Jew picked this [35:24] year for a Nobel Prize and it was a kind [35:26] of apology prize. He should have gotten [35:28] the prize uh 30 years ago for something, [35:30] but they excluded him. So they named him [35:32] as one of the Nobel Prize winners. Jews [35:35] will never again win a prize for [35:38] literature, for peace, um for anything [35:41] that's discretionary. And so, and and [35:44] Jews are not going to be um accepted as [35:46] McCarthy fellows. They're not going to [35:48] be accepted. Jews are not going to be [35:50] picked by other people for things. [35:52] They're going to have to do it on their [35:54] own. Thank God we today live in an open [35:57] market economy. And so you can have [36:00] people who uh make fortunes of money, [36:03] whether it be Ellison's or Facebook or [36:06] anything like that. Jews can still do it [36:09] on their own, but Jews are no longer [36:12] going to be picked by other people to do [36:14] things. And Jews are not going to be [36:17] picked to be political candidates. Josh, [36:19] the Josh Shapiro episode was a very [36:22] important episode in American history. [36:24] He was the obvious candidate. His name [36:26] was John Shapi. uh he'd have been [36:29] >> this you're referring to when Kla Harris [36:31] was picking a running mate in 2024. [36:33] >> He was a Jewish Zionist and he won't be [36:36] picked this time around either. He's [36:37] obviously the person who could win [36:41] Pennsylvania and probably do a better [36:43] job than most of the others. But the [36:45] Democrats will not pick a Jew to run for [36:48] president just because he's a Jew. He [36:50] won't be picked. And I think that's [36:52] going to be true of politics in general. [36:55] There are too many anti-semites in the [36:57] Democratic party. Um, you know, if if [36:59] Shash Shapiro got up there and made an [37:01] announcement saying, "I hereby declare [37:03] Israel to be a genocidal state, if he [37:05] became uh Brad Ladner or somebody like [37:08] that." You know, conceivably, I don't [37:11] even think he'd get the nomination then. [37:13] But as long as he is [37:15] >> and and and and Josh Shapiro was not a [37:17] fervent Zionist. He's a centrist critic [37:20] of Israel, Zionist, but he's not going [37:24] to get the nomination. Um, and uh the [37:28] the situation of American Jews is [37:30] changing dramatically in the last 25 [37:33] years. And it's going to get different. [37:36] It's going to get worse, but it's going [37:38] to get different. But hopefully, Jews [37:39] will still be able to do it on their own [37:41] in a free market economy. They'll be [37:43] able to start companies. They'll be able [37:45] to invent things. They're no longer [37:47] great musicians because they don't have [37:50] they don't study hard enough and work [37:51] hard enough and practice enough which [37:54] you have to do and that's on them. Um [37:56] but they're still going to be you know [37:59] brilliant innovators and they're going [38:00] to but they're going to do it on their [38:02] own and that's a metaphor for Israel. [38:05] Israel is going to have to be on its [38:06] own. Israel cannot any longer count on [38:08] the support of the United States. What [38:10] if Vance becomes president um of the [38:13] United States? Does that mean the end of [38:16] uh the kind of support that Trump is [38:18] giving? Very likely. Uh or what if, god [38:22] forbid, one of the crazy Democrats gets [38:24] the nomination and becomes the [38:26] president? Israel has I made a speech in [38:29] front of Globus probably 10 years ago [38:31] before any of this happened 10 years ago [38:33] in Israel urging Israel to become [38:36] self-reliant militarily that it cannot [38:39] count on the friendship of neighbors of [38:41] the help of neighbors. Jews just have to [38:44] make sure they can do it on their own. [38:47] That's the new motto. Do it on your own. [38:49] Don't count on anybody else. [38:53] >> U you said, let me just um let's discuss [38:56] this a little more. You said that you [38:58] would, you know, if you could be a [39:00] Democrat in the mold of Senator John [39:02] Federman. Um but I mean there doesn't [39:06] seem to be much of a future for him as [39:08] you've just conceded as a pro-Israel [39:10] Democrat. never never mind being someone [39:12] in favor of bipartisan cooperation with [39:15] Trump. And you've mentioned Governor [39:16] Josh Shapiro who is trying to thread the [39:20] needle with Democratic voters by [39:21] balancing, you know, he's continued to [39:24] express his support for Israel and his [39:26] love for Israel. And listen, I know I [39:28] mean he's he's my fellow congregant and [39:31] neighbor. Um with criticism of [39:33] Netanyahu. [39:35] Um the question is, you know, you're [39:38] saying he has no chance to win. He he [39:40] obviously thinks he does because he's [39:42] preparing to run in 2028. Um, you know, [39:46] hoping for lightning to strike as [39:48] everybody else who runs for president. [39:49] You know, they have a scenario in their [39:51] head. You think he's dreaming, do you? [39:54] >> I do. And only because he's Jewish. Uh, [39:56] if he were not Jewish, if he were the [39:58] very popular governor of Pennsylvania, [40:00] Democrat, moderate, centrist, he'd be [40:03] the he'd be the front runner. It's just [40:06] because he's Jewish and not an [40:08] anti-sionist that disqualifies him from [40:11] being nominated by the Democrats to be [40:13] president. He's more likely to get the [40:15] nomination um if somebody like him, not [40:18] him, for the Republican party. And you [40:20] know, Fedin will get the Republican uh [40:22] nomination for the Senate or the [40:24] independent nomine assuming he runs. [40:26] Yeah, [40:27] >> he runs. You know, he may be like our my [40:29] dear friend Joe Lieberman who didn't get [40:31] the Democratic nomination for the Senate [40:33] but then won the seat with Independence [40:36] >> in 2006. Yes. When he was running for [40:38] reelection. A little harder to do that [40:41] in Pennsylvania than it was in [40:42] Connecticut. Um but we'll see. Um he's [40:45] not raising much money right now quite [40:47] frankly. Um that which may be a telltale [40:50] sign that that's not going to happen, [40:52] but you never know. In your book, you [40:54] speak of becoming a reluctant Republican [40:57] since you still support many liberal [40:59] positions such as on abortion and [41:01] healthcare where you're closer with the [41:03] Democrats. And you've already said this, [41:06] but let let's talk about a little more [41:08] about the future. What's you know, can [41:10] you be sanguin about the future of the [41:12] GOP as a pro-Israel party as it still is [41:15] right now? And unlike in the Democrats, [41:18] the sort of uh the groper wing of the [41:20] Republicans, they haven't won any [41:21] primaries. uh they've been defeated at [41:23] every turn so far. But given the [41:26] existence of uh shall we say a graper [41:29] anti-semitic wing that looks to somebody [41:31] like Tucker Carlson for guidance and the [41:34] likelihood of his friend Vice President [41:36] J. D. Vance being their nominee uh that [41:38] calls that into question. Um and you [41:41] know Republican Jews, longtime [41:43] Republican Jews are sort of dancing [41:45] around this issue um debating it. And [41:48] while we're discussing the vice [41:50] president, do you think um just to to be [41:53] very frank here that maintaining a close [41:55] friendship with one of the country's [41:57] most notorious anti-semmites as Dr. [42:00] Carlson is and as Bans said the other [42:03] day that he remains his friend. Do you [42:05] think that should be a deal breakaker [42:06] for Jewish voters? I think it should be [42:08] a great concern for Jewish voters. I [42:10] think Jewish voters have to look at the [42:12] totality of the circumstances at the [42:14] alternatives. So I don't think there are [42:16] any real deal breakers. Um but there are [42:19] causes for concern. I think Vance uh has [42:22] said many things that uh should cause [42:25] concern uh not only among Jewish v [42:27] voters uh but among non-Jewish [42:29] supporters of uh Israel. Um you know the [42:33] case for Vance is that he's not [42:35] anti-Israel. He's certainly not [42:37] anti-semitic. absolutely no evidence of [42:39] anti-semitism but that he is an you know [42:42] a selective isolationist and but so is [42:45] Trump a selective isolationist and you [42:48] could see the difference between Trump [42:49] and Vance um Trump instinctively [42:53] supports Israel supports Netanyahu when [42:56] in doubt you know he has his criticisms [42:58] of Israel and Natanyahu I've heard those [43:00] criticisms both in private and in public [43:03] I wish I could share with you some of [43:05] the things that President Trump has said [43:07] to me about Israel and about Netanyahu. [43:10] They're not all always positive, but on [43:14] balance, he is the most, you know, [43:17] pro-Israel president in a long time. [43:19] Well, I think Bill Clinton was probably [43:21] as pro-Israel a president as as anyone. [43:24] I've had long talks with Bill about [43:27] Israel uh over the years. Of course, [43:29] Lyndon Johnson was very pro-Israel and [43:32] uh Harry Truman was very pro-Israel. So, [43:34] you know, we have a mixture. Uh but uh I [43:37] worry very much about Vance, but it's [43:39] not a dealbreaker for me. For me, it's a [43:41] a cause of concern and an opportunity [43:44] for Democrats who were close to him to [43:48] exercise um so exert some pressure on [43:50] him to make sure that he uh falls on the [43:54] right side of lines. You know, I care [43:57] less about what a person thinks than [43:58] what a person does. And I want to see [44:01] whether Vance will uh continue to [44:04] support Israel. He certainly has [44:06] supported the sending of weapons to [44:08] Israel unlike the Democrats. So as [44:11] between Vance and most Democrats, I [44:14] would [44:14] >> between Vance and say AOC or you know [44:17] another Bernie Sanders Democrat um or [44:19] even someone like Gavin Newsome who says [44:23] you know he won't take money from Apac. [44:25] Where where does that fall in the in the [44:27] balance? That for me falls on the the [44:30] wrong side of the line. But, you know, [44:31] for me, the worst Democrats are not AOC. [44:34] The worst Democrats are Liz Warren and [44:37] uh um uh the senator from Connecticut. [44:41] And you know, if Chris Murphy [44:43] >> loses her race, there will not be a [44:46] single member of Congress from all of [44:48] New England who's Republican. Even [44:50] though 45% of New England vote [44:53] Republican, there wouldn't be a single [44:55] Republican member of the House or the [44:57] Senate from New England who was a a Dem [45:00] who was a Republican. And u and that's [45:04] awful. I mean, the Democratic senators [45:06] from Massachusetts are the worst. Um and [45:10] and Connecticut is not, you know, they [45:12] have one not so bad one and one very [45:13] very bad one. And um then you have the [45:18] others. So, uh, uh, king isn't so [45:21] terrible, but, uh, he's an independent, [45:23] but, uh, you know, we're seeing a [45:25] dramatic change and, uh, and and Israel [45:29] has to be prepared to deal with that [45:30] change and be ready for the possibility [45:33] that it will not get direct military [45:36] support. Now, you know, Israel's best [45:40] answer is not vote for us, we're Jews. [45:42] It's we're providing you with invaluable [45:44] intelligence. We're providing you with [45:47] development of weapons. We're doing more [45:49] to help America or as much to help [45:51] America as America has to help Jews. So, [45:54] it's a relationship of mutual benefit [45:55] and I think that part of it will last. I [45:58] mean, the strongest supporters of of [46:00] Israel today are in never used to be the [46:03] CIA, but today it is uh intelligence and [46:06] it is um the military and I think that [46:10] will remain to some degree. [46:12] >> Okay. My last question for you concerns [46:15] uh what is happening in Europe right [46:17] now. Uh what conclusions do you draw [46:19] from what is happening in countries like [46:21] France and Britain? Um never mind the [46:24] riots in France but you know but in [46:26] countries where anti-semitism has become [46:28] so prevalent. Um what conclusion should [46:31] American Jews draw from that? We are in [46:34] 1932 Germany. Not 1935. Not 1938, God [46:39] forbid, but we're in 1932 Germany. You [46:41] remember what was happening in the world [46:42] in the 1932? All the centrist parties [46:46] were collapsing. You had to be either a [46:48] fascist or a communist. Um and and when [46:52] you have to be either a fascist or a [46:53] communist, the one group that's squeezed [46:56] worst is the Jews. And that's what [46:58] happened. And that's what's happening in [47:00] Europe today. Even these French riots, [47:03] both the right and the left are blaming [47:04] it on Jews. Um and um Jews aren't even [47:09] involved in the in in what's going on in [47:11] France. They play virtually no role in [47:14] in French politics unlike in English [47:16] politics, you know, where you have the [47:18] leader of the most anti-Israel party. Uh [47:20] the the Greens is Jewish. The [47:23] anti-Israel [47:25] uh minister of defense is Jewish. Um you [47:30] don't see that so much um in in France. [47:33] So I think what's going on in the world [47:35] today is a microcosm of or macrocosm in [47:39] this case of what's going on in America. [47:41] We're seeing the world moving away from [47:43] the center and toward extremes. That's [47:46] very bad for the Jews. That's very bad [47:48] for Israel. By the way, we're seeing it [47:50] in Israel. We're seeing it in Israel. [47:52] Centerist party. I mean, it's possible [47:53] the most recent polls show a centrist [47:56] party doing a center-right party doing [48:01] uh quite well more than the left. The [48:03] left, which has disappeared in Israel [48:06] after the failure of the Palestinians to [48:08] agree to 20201 peace offer. The the left [48:12] is gone in Israel. So now we have the [48:14] center uh and the right and the extreme [48:18] right and and we're seeing a movement [48:20] toward the right. I'm not surprised. You [48:22] know, you have a million Soviet Jews [48:25] voting and Soviet Jews understand [48:27] communism better than anybody else. So, [48:30] don't expect them to be liberals or [48:31] radicals or leftists. But we're also [48:34] seeing um you know anti-Arab feelings [48:37] increase um after after October 7th. So, [48:41] we're seeing extremism development in [48:44] Israel as well. Extremism is not healthy [48:47] for democracy and it's not healthy for [48:49] peace. it's not healthy for um important [48:52] values. So I I think the world's in a [48:54] dangerous place. [48:55] >> Yeah. Let me follow up just briefly. Um [48:58] one of the you know the sort of uh the [49:01] reactions to what's happening [49:03] specifically in France is that it seems [49:05] to be helping you know the rally for the [49:07] republic the Marine Le Pen's party which [49:11] you know has its origins and her father [49:13] was a terrible anti-semite when he [49:15] founded that party. She and her [49:17] associates claim to be very pro-Israel. [49:19] Um, and compared to the other parties, [49:21] especially those on the left, and even [49:22] Macron, who's supposed to be the center, [49:24] you know, they are more pro-Israel than [49:26] him. Should Jews, and you're right, the [49:28] Jews don't really play any serious role [49:31] in French politics. Should Jews greet, [49:34] you know, the rise of such a party with, [49:36] you know, any any optimism? [49:40] >> No. I think Jews should be concerned [49:42] about the rise of right-wing parties [49:44] that support Israel. Um, but they should [49:47] accept their support. Um, they should be [49:49] concerned about what's going on in [49:50] France, in Germany, in Poland. We're all [49:53] seeing the right-wing parties mostly [49:56] supporting Israel and the left-wing [49:58] parties almost universally opposing [50:01] Israel. And so, you know, Israel has to [50:04] deal with that in a constructive way. [50:07] And it doesn't mean either adopting um [50:11] enthusiastically the rise of right-wing [50:13] parties. Um you know you just ask [50:16] yourself the hypothetical what if Hitler [50:18] had just been a little smarter and [50:20] hadn't focused so much on the Jews had [50:22] focused you know on Romani people and [50:25] other people and had said well you know [50:28] sending Jews to Palestine that's not [50:30] such a bad idea we'll get rid of them in [50:32] Europe. What would the Jewish community [50:34] have have done there if Hitler had been [50:36] in a narrow sense good for the Jews if [50:39] he hadn't made the terrible mistake of [50:41] declaring war on the Jews which probably [50:44] cost him his life and the war? Um but so [50:47] we have to be very careful about how we [50:50] align with uh parties and with uh uh [50:55] ideologies that are ultimately dangerous [51:00] for Jews. Very right-wing but in the [51:02] short term support u Jewish values in [51:05] Israel. Very very complicated and [51:07] difficult question. [51:08] >> It is indeed. Professor Duritz, thanks [51:11] so much for joining us today. What's the [51:13] best way for our viewers and listeners [51:15] to get your books and follow your work? [51:16] >> Well, the best way to do it is do it [51:18] through Amazon.com and uh or through [51:20] Barnes & Noble and um uh but you know, [51:26] if your local bookstore will carry it uh [51:28] fine. Um, and the most important thing [51:31] is use your political power, your [51:33] political influence to change the [51:35] current uh dynamic. Whether it be by [51:37] joining the Republican party or quitting [51:39] the Democrats and becoming an [51:40] independent or staying a Democrat and [51:43] putting pressure on the Democrats to do [51:45] the right thing, which I think is a [51:46] feudal effort myself, but some people [51:48] agree with that. But you can't do [51:50] nothing. This is a time of great [51:52] challenge and even crisis for [51:55] liberalism, for the Jewish community, [51:57] for America, and everybody has to be [51:59] part of it. And uh even at my young age [52:02] of 88, I'm staying in the battle as long [52:04] as the good Lord gives me the strength [52:06] to do so. And gives me friends like you [52:09] who uh have done such an amazing job in [52:13] promoting uh Jewish values and and good [52:16] values. So, keep up the really important [52:18] work. I'm a big follower and big fat. [52:21] >> Well, thank you from on behalf of all of [52:22] us at JNS and uh may God protect you to [52:26] keep going. We're going to stay in the [52:27] fight and we hope you stay in the fight [52:29] with us. Um we also want to thank our [52:31] audience. Please remember to tune in [52:33] every day for Jonathan Tobin daily [52:35] edition which you can hear wherever you [52:37] get your podcast and whether you're [52:38] listening to us on any one of them [52:40] watching us live on Facebook or X or on [52:42] the JNS YouTube channel. Please like and [52:45] or subscribe to JNS. Click on the bell [52:47] for notifications and give us good [52:49] reviews. Please write to us at think [52:51] twicejns.org. [52:53] Let us know where you listen or watch [52:54] the show and what you think about it. [52:56] And remember, keep reading and thinking [52:58] for yourself. And we'll see you again [53:00] next week.
